Repetitiveness in the Heroine Genre

Is there an issue with repetitiveness in the heroine genre?

After this particular topic surfaced a while ago and became somewhat of a hot-button issue, I started to put quite a bit of thought into it. And after reading every comment I could find on the matter from both fans and producers, I realized that two similar but slightly different assertions were being made:

1.  Fight scenes are becoming repetitive.

2.  Films as a whole are becoming repetitive.

So let’s start with the fighting.  The notion that the fights are becoming repetitive in these films is something I actually do agree with to an extent.  But I don’t really have a problem with it, and here’s why.

I personally love martial arts shorts.  And YouTube has made it easy to find incredibly well-done martial arts short films produced by professionals all over the world.  I’ve become a big fan of dozens of male and female martial artists who are capable of doing things physically that 99.9% of us could only dream of.  And when I run any of their videos side by side, I notice tons of similarities.  And the people that I follow who choreograph and perform in these films are considered to be the best of the best in their field.

They are martial artists/stuntmen/stuntwomen who live and breathe this life 24/7.  It’s literally all they do.  And when I watch their shorts on YouTube, I see the same combinations.  The same attacks.  The same blocks.  The same gymnastics.  It’s all breathtaking to watch, but I rarely see anything truly new anymore.  My point is that if the people who make this their livelihoods are hard-pressed to execute something original, are we asking a little too much of our producers, who have limited time and money and may be working with actresses who have little or no stage fighting experience?

It also occurred to me that we as fans are at least partially to blame for this phenomenon.  I read just about every comment posted on the site, and for every new and original fight idea put forth by a fan, I see many more like the following:

“Can we get more bearhugs?”
“How about some more throatlifts next time?”
“Low blows!!! You need to include more low blows!!!”
“No pantyhose? Pass.”
“Pantyhose? Pass.”

I have to imagine that the producers e-mail inbox’s feature a similar sampling of comments. Could producers just be responding to the majority of messages they read and that’s what’s causing the “sameness?”  I think it’s at least something to consider. I just think there are two sides here, and producers are in a difficult position trying to find balance between trying new things and attempting to please a fickle fanbase.

So that takes us to the films as a whole.  Are they becoming repetitive?  Again, I’ve thought about this one for a while, and although I’m positive that it’s going to put me into the minority, I’m going to say no.

I fully understand where this criticism is coming from. I really do. I’ve also taken into consideration the number one complaint leveled against producers for “sameness”:  Too much Supergirl. Too much Wonder Woman. Too much Batgirl. And I understand that point and all the others that come with it. But on a personal level, I have enjoyed the recent works of the four of five producers I follow closely more than ever. I just haven’t had that “I’ve seen this all before” feeling.

I will admit that the circle of producers that I actively follow has gotten smaller after I lost interest in some big names. Most notably Zen Pictures, a site I almost never go to anymore. It wasn’t lack of originality in their case. They were just getting away from making films that I enjoyed. Actually, the genre as a whole seems to be trending away from making movies that I personally would like to see. That’s not a criticism. It’s just the way it is. And if that is a road that the producers are finding success going down, more power to them.

The funny thing is that although I firmly believe the majority of you will think that some degree of repetitiveness has set in, the comments section doesn’t at all reflect that. Go through the comments section of one of the bigger producer’s recent releases. You know the names. For every one comment that comes down on a producer for “sameness,” there are easily ten or more saying how much they loved the film. It doesn’t read like the majority of fans have problems with what producers are releasing. Maybe it’s just that one or two negative comments tend to stick out more than a slew of positive ones. Or maybe I’m just a moron whose every conclusion is wrong. That’s always a strong possibility.

I imagine if you asked the producers we cover what’s more important to them, producing a quality product that they are proud of or making a lot of money, 99% would pick the former. And that’s when their creative vision and our desires as fans can come into conflict. And the downside to that for producers is that it’s a flooded market, and we have other options, not to mention the ability to finance our own customs with almost any company.

Is it wise for producers to listen and use some fan input? Sure. But if producers make films to satisfy the whim of every fan, they’re probably not making the films they originally wanted to make when they started in this genre, and that’s got to be the worst possible scenario for any producer who has their own vision. And this genre’s producers have incredible vision. Of that there can be no doubt.

So we open this topic up to fans and producers, two groups that are a lot smarter than me.

Is repetitiveness an issue?
If it is are there any solutions?
Are fans part of this problem, or do producers just need to do better?

The forum is yours.

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rizo
rizo

I think that Descendingskulls worded some of our frustrations pretty eloquently. I feel that there needs to be more interaction with some of the creatives in the super heroine fetish community and some research done in heroine peril genres both in the mainstream and underground.

There can be a smart, delicate balance created to show new things in our genre. We have all gotten tired of the “Gargantua bear hugs WW” scenario or the “Bane backbreakers”. There’s SO MUCH more out there though! One of the examples I have given more recently is this scene from the WW TV show where she faces a laser machine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vLFJAlMVYs

It’s ridiculously easy to rig something up like that in a Rye video for example, and draw it out a bit longer and have WW succumb to the blasts.

Another rather creative (and smartly written) series is by Richvillaino over at deviant art:
http://richvilliano.deviantart.com

If you look through some of his stories you will notice the great homages he gives to the WW show along with creative some of his own quite original and peril heavy content. I could see a few producers collaborating and using some of Rich’s work to spice up some of the stale material we’re getting today. Here’s an example of a story I loved from Rich’s Work:

http://richvilliano.deviantart.com/gallery/47974350/Third-Rail

Notice the following panels where Rich used a totally new peril element that he came up with himself:
http://richvilliano.deviantart.com/art/Third-Rail-13-433951524

http://richvilliano.deviantart.com/art/Third-Rail-14-part-1-434456515

http://richvilliano.deviantart.com/art/Third-Rail-14-part-2-434467074

http://richvilliano.deviantart.com/art/Third-Rail-15-436077477

http://richvilliano.deviantart.com/art/Third-Rail-16-436331671

http://richvilliano.deviantart.com/art/Third-Rail-17-436557478

Now granted, I don’t know what production value can be brought to create such scenes, but the important thing I think, and as Descendingskulls mentioned, is to pry open that treasure trove of super heroine fetish in the mainstream and in the underground and allow it to again inspire your work.

I know the temptation of producers is to recreate the simple elements that work and to sell them efficiently, but I’m just saying that taking the time to look at new stuff can reinvigorate you creatively.

I personally actually don’t mind if we have some repetitiveness in the genre (for example i am a huge fan of beatdowns and am presently downloading Never Say Never to judge for myself) but changing the formula around does not hurt at all, even if you take some time off to do the research.

I know that Rye posted that his groundbreaking work is going to focus on the RYE-UK stuff but I think to all the producers, digging through the wealth of material online can really help. And, as i mentioned on another forum, I would gladly put my money where my mouth is to recreate some of the above scenarios in custom movies.

I can really see a bright future long term for the peril genre. it just needs to step out of it’s routine once in a while too.

Gene
Gene

I second decendingskulls comments about writing being important and would like to add that specifically good Dialogue writing is something that could really add efficacy to these movies without the cost of production going up at all. When dialogue is done well, particularly when it is the bad guys breaking the heroines with demeaning bad guy speeches it is just awesome.

horsewithnoname
horsewithnoname

@ decendingskulls: very good post. I agree with you 100%.

biilbo
biilbo

I’ll keep it short. My biggest gripe at the moment is the cast of nearly all producers failing to ‘sell’ the action. If yoy put on just about any peril scene from any producer and close your eyes it sounds just like porn. Its why i never liked any of the jap stuff. I have said over and again too that big finishing moves dont exist. You dont need to have stunt men/women to do it, just clever editting. Bluestone has the right idea with the backbreaker scenes but its few and far between. Ive not purchaced a movie now since before christmas because nothing has stood out as a ‘must buy’

decendingskulls
decendingskulls

I often preach that less is more, and the custom I just had commissioned is evidence of that mindset. However tonight I’m going to submit to you a very different argument. See, that custom I had done was something I kinda had to get out of my system, and there’s certainly nothing wrong with something like that. I just wanted some raw smut for and I wanted it done my way for a reasonable price, and I couldn’t be happier with how faithfully the producer and actors carried out the project.

However, I think what we as a community of producers, fans, and everyone in between need to do to move forward on to greater things to keep things interesting, is we need to take the most basic lesson of video entertainment: We need to go back to writing. We inhabit a community full of writers and role players, don’t we? But do me a favor and take a look through the pages of new releases advertised on this site and tell me how many you think would have made an interesting story or role play. Not many at all. Pages and pages of releases. Very little writing. It does seem to me that we’re relying too heavily on a formula, and too focused on what fetishes get covered and just trying to repackage it a little differently each time.

Now I can hear you already starting to voice your counter-argument in your head. That too much writing has led us astray in the past, and too much writing leads to overly complex convoluted stories, lack of fetish material, and high price tags. But it doesn’t have to be that way at all. I would take a well-written movie over production values any day of the week, over and over again, so there’s at least part of your answer to the cost problem. Secondly good writing does not have to mean complex writing and it doesn’t have to mean un-sexy writing. I have seen better writing – better role play set-ups in crappy 90’s Saturday morning cartoons than in most of these superheroine films, and you KNOW they kept it simple. They just did what they had to do – created characters with personalities and motivations, and created situations for them to deal with. Nothing fancy.

There are writers who can write an interesting story, but fail to deliver on the sexual fetish aspects. There are writers who can lay out sexy action sequences, but write characters with no personality or reason for being and nothing moving the plot anywhere. Then there are writers who can balance both of these styles and merge them into a single cohesive story where the plot effects the sex and the sex effects the plot.

To me, Alex David’s ‘Super Heroine League – The Dark Seduction’ was a perfect example of how to write for a heroine peril movie. It was not at all complicated, but you could just feel how well planned out it was. It was about 60 minutes long in total, and there wasn’t a dull moment to be found. That’s not an opinion that’s irrefutable fact. The mere fact that customers shelled out $60 for it and the vast majority came back saying it was money well spent speaks VOLUMES, because you know how tough it is to sell a $60 superheroine fetish clip. I can tell you, because I read the script before the movie was produced, that the writing laid the foundation for all of it. Without good writing, good movies would simply not exist.

Many of Secret Hero film’s recent movies have had a well-written role-play vibe to them, some more than others. In particular, ‘Lady Victory’ seemed to be very confident. But then it was a bit of a let down for me in the sexual category. It was just a tad too tame for me.

For the next well-written movies I have to go back to TBFE’s Blue Swan and Redwing. These were not exactly home runs as far as writing, but they were still clearly head and shoulders above much of their competition at the time. They struck an admirable balance between characters, action storyboarding, and sexual fetish. I felt that if anything they suffer a bit from relying too much on “the beatdown” sequences, which for me seem to get overly drawn out in many of these films, but at least in TBFE’s they were well produced and exciting.

Recent ‘Defeated Heroines’ movies seem to be following a similar model lately and seem suddenly like they might be a direct competitor to TBFE. They both have great production values, great acting and fight sequences and sets, creative costumes and characters, and they both have dark tones and adult sexual content and fairly predictable heroine defeat outcomes. They both seem to flirt with writing, just enough to create a plausible world for the characters to live in, but usually not much further. Overall Defeated Heroines formula lately is to point blank drop a beautiful heroine into a meat grinder, and it works very well, but even that could be better with more finesse.

Fly or Die showed a definite creative spark in their willingness to create very original and offbeat characters, but that one was again a bit too tame for me, and the writing was a little too straightforward, but it showed some promise.

Steve Noir seems to be playing by his own rules these days with his Fear Girl series so it’s almost not fair to mention him here. He seems to be renouncing writing outright in favor of exploring atmosphere and mystery. Only time will tell the results of the experiment, but he seems intent to forge his own path, as he did with his ‘Gang Thang’ series. I respect that.

My point in noting all of these releases to simply to paint the picture of the current state of writing in this genre, to prove my point.

With so many releases, there almost seems to be a rush to create more movies, a rush to hone in on the perfect formula. A rush to cash in on the craze, perhaps? If anyone wants to be better than this, if there is truly a desire to be better, I say sit back and have a glass of wine or have a smoke and just brew on ideas. Chill out. The whole world is moving too fast. Stop trying to figure us out and get personal with yourself. Write a story – collaborate with someone – and then figure out how to edit it down to make it into an affordable movie. Go online and chat and role play and find some bizarre unique kink you didn’t know about that someone has, and let some creative juices flow a bit. Go back to your roots.

in the jungle
in the jungle

In my point of view the problem is not the repetitiveness. The problem is that you already know whats going to happen in the movies before they start, you don´t need a preview. Nothing surprises you. You see some pictures and it´s not difficult to imagine. It is always the same story. Even in a fetish world, you need to be surprised sometimes.

Ambassador
Ambassador

How one executes it could lesson the repetitiveness. Football, baseball, and other “ball” sports are basically repetitiveness, BUT how it is executed is what I feel brings us back for more. To watch a world champion caliber athlete play the game is much more enticing than say a back up or third stringer. A couple of renowned writers/ film makers have both said that the minds eye is the best camera. (I’m interpreting) but you get the jist. So if it is written well, shot well and the actress SELLS the H*** out of it, i’ll come back for more of the same. There are plenty of amazing explicit blow by blow move by move stories out there to draw off of. Not saying that one should “steal” but use some or part of a story to turn into film. If I had the funds, there are half a dozen I’d pay to have made, exactly as they are written.
I like some of the lengthier retorts here, never know when or where you’ll learn something new.
Also as I’ve said before, to terminate some of the problems that arise of how a heroine is defeated, use a heroine that is simply a bada** like Sonja or Black Scorpion, Black Widow. Has no “super” powers, just a greater than thou attitude that need to be diminished.

decendingskulls
decendingskulls

@Dman what about Jean Grey?
Mmmmmm redheads…

Henry
Henry

While fetishes tends to remain the same for people after the development age, changing the scope of the film might find people with other fetishes, after all, you are not targeting the same people time after time.
As to the repetitiveness, there are lots of things you can do that does not involving changing the set of fetish elements involved, things like a plot, dialogue, setting, background, personality, the order of fetish elements, why these elements are applied, in what situation are they applied, these, rather than new costumes or same generic characters, are a true test of a writer’s creativity.
Selling the same thing over and over again, with similar elements in all categories, will get you money sure, but the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” approaches so often underestimates the “brokeness” of an object, resulting ultimately in the inevitable downfall in the long term.

Dman
Dman

What’s repetitive are the characters. 99% of the heroine videos are of wonder woman or supergirl.

Why not use some of the many other heroines out there : Rogue, Storm, Vixen, etc.

Dr Yuya
Dr Yuya

I stand by my statement that a successful producer of a particular fetish material has little to no reason to change their fare.

Why do I believe fetish material doesn’t need to change as much as other forms of entertainment? Simple…our fetishes are more often than not rooted in our minds from a very early age…and pretty much always derived from the basic and natural sexual urges we feel. Sure…fetishes can get crazy and even sometimes seem like they have nothing to do with nature…but in the end they do…they’re just our in intelligence layering stuff on the more primal desire.

Nature doesn’t change much…this I don’t believe the attached fetish will either. Am I wrong? Tell me then, how many of you past the age of twenty or so have really developed a new “porn preference” that’s superceded the old…simply because some company out there offered a creative change and you took to it (meaning you had no real interest beforehand…and the creative work itself convinced you)? I couldn’t imagine there being too many of you.

Given this idea…that’s why it seems crazy to me when a company scoring nice profits with a proven fan base (like Zen) decides it’s time to change. Illogical…and financially risky.

HorseWithNoName
HorseWithNoName

@ Lumpy: you are always more than welcome to disagree with me as everybody else is.
My posts are solely from my perspective and I am always eager to read other people’s opinions. How boring it would be if we all agreed! As far as I can tell, there is no right and no wrong 🙂

Ray
Ray

I’ve been loving this genre ever since I stumbled upon it. I personally think it’s no so much the action of fights scenes or peril since I can’t say that there are way too many ways to vary that but I personally now look more for the aesthetics of the character and how they can connect with me. I would like more variety of characters, even if it might start falling out of the Super heroines in peril theme but maybe look into incorporating some video game characters as well. I don’t think some of those costumes would be that expensive to reproduce. Sometimes, I would be playing a game and those near failed missions would be great peril scenes. Like Resident Evil, I let Jill fail more than few times to watch her peril or Final Fight 2 with Maki, let her fail to see her struggling before you can hit the start button.

Some of my favorite videos from this genre were the ones that made me connected with the character. I think of Rocky, just punches but since it was Rocky throwing the punches, it was exciting. If we didn’t know Rocky and it was some random guy just starting to throw punches, I don’t think it would’ve been nearly as exciting. I also like when you want the villain to win. Well, for me at least, just like Rye’s Enthusiastic Participation. I could feel for that guy and it made it more satisfying.

Lumpy
Lumpy

Far be it from me to disagree with @Horsewithnoname, the all knowing self appointed moderator of every thread on this site. Thank you oh great one on schooling me as to what type of thread this is.
The point isn’t to start a new debate on the future of McDonalds, it was to make the point that when something sells you can expect to get more of it.(In other words, 60 years worth of burgers with more decades of that to come)
As usual you side stepped the point in order to bless us with your ubiquitous insight on everything.
As far you dismissing my point on guys who don’t like custom videos, I will again take the risk of disagreeing with the great Horse, and say that I have seen customs get posted here and guys list their complaints only to have the producer explain that is was a custom.
You don’t recall, that’s fine, but I do.

HorseWithNoName
HorseWithNoName

@ Sugercoater: Exactly! And heroine-themed burgers, now that could become a thing 🙂

I for one consistantly browse on iTunes to look for music I do not yet know. Have “discovered” some great recording artists from all sorts of genres this way over the years. Makes me kinda sad to think of all the great, different music I have not yet “discovered”.

A side-note: I talked to some girls I know on the weekend who had just seen the 50 Shades movie. They all loved it, telling me it is the best comedy (!) they have seen in months and Dakota is so funny. Have just ordered my ticket 🙂

Sugarcoater
Sugarcoater

In going with the McDonalds analogy, I would add that people consistently go to McDonalds until one day a new restaurant opens up with a different kind of fare. Suddenly the new restaurant gains popularity because many of the burger fans discover they like the new product more. But until the new restaurant took the chance to open up near the McDonalds and offer a different type of meal, customers didn’t know what else they had available to them.
I love my Supergirl and Wonder Woman burgers, but I also love the Redwing sandwich.

HorseWithNoName
HorseWithNoName

@ Lumpy: you are aware that this particular thread is under the newly created category “Editorial”, hence should somebody not be interested in a “convoluted discussion” of a certain topic, he / she will not miss much 🙂

And: I was the one to bring up McDonald’s as an example. Yes, they sell burgers and have been doing so for many years. And yet the recently fired their CEO with many experts claiming that he is not to blame, but the company as such is in dire need of innovation.

So, something that sells today might not sell tomorrow. I have not been inside a McDonald’s in about two years. Why? It is the same old boring stuff.

And not everybody posting stuff they would like to see is looking for a custom on the cheap. In this thread alone you will find statements from producers, that now and then they will pick up on those suggestions and examine if there is something there that might appeal to a broader audience. And why not?

And isn’t it a bit odd that when there is “a video that is different” that it is in fact a custom? And I cannot recall that whenever there was something that was very outside the box and was in fact a custom, that nobody liked it. Miss Pacman comes to mind. I recall that a share of fans did receive it fairly well.

Lumpy
Lumpy

It’s amazing how overly convoluted these discussions can get on this forum.(Of course certain folks here love to hear themselves talk, or read their own words for that matter)
This really isn’t that complicated. If something sells, then you can bet they’re gonna make more videos like that. McDonalds sells burgers. They’ve been selling them for decades. They are a billion dollar company, not because they offer salads and wraps on occasion. The majority of what they sell is burgers and that is what will continue to be the core of their business.
Now many guys here who don’t want to spend the money on a custom video like to use this forum to give detailed lists of what they want to see, under the guise of constructive criticism, in the hopes that a producer will make a video tailor made to they’re tastes. I love it when we do get a video that is different and no one on this forum likes it, the producer will often respond with,…”this was a custom”.

Gene
Gene

Cool topic. My opinion is that you can’t really have a niche market like the Super-heroines in peril genre without it being repetitive in some way. The reason we all like these films is because they show us things that mainstream film and television doesn’t i.e: Heroines losing to villains, Heroines being sexually demeaned and the more specific elements like bear hugs and throatlifts etc. That naturally leads to repetition in these films, however the devil can be in the details and very small new details can be very exciting: In Hawke vs Firestar from heroine kombat there is a move where Hawke has Firestar in a front on headlock and is punching her back, you don’t see that that often and I found it very sexy. Small things like that are what I hope to see when I purchase a new video. P.S I am still waiting for a producer to create a villainess who uses the Xenia Onatopp stomach crush with the thighs move from Goldeneye. Seriously how has that not been a thing in this genre?

Da Jinx

Cool topic! I like to try new things but I could see where the repetition comes in. Like others has mentioned, budgeting, time constraints and locations usually are the cause for the repitition because it helps producers play it safe and get the video in the time we have available. Also, if something sells, producers are more likely to do it on a regular basis as they know it is what most fans want and they will make money back or even profit from sales.
I like to try new things but there are certain things that I know that my videos have to include which would ensure they’ll sell. As for characters, I have my original characters but Supergirl and Wonder Woman type characters always sell the most, so I create more videos with them that would help fund my other original character videos. I have a new video coming out in a few days that has more of SciFi background, I’m taking a chance since it’s not the typical superheroine story but it would have some superheroine in peril elements that I and others would enjoy. So, even when producers try something new, there are usually some repetition to ensure most would like it and buy.

Logan

@Fabio: COMPLETELY agree with you, however– most films we do (speaking obviously for my production only) are custom films. MOST custom buyers specifically ask for certain moves to be done——– back to back to back…. because most customs are about on element and they are paying for that and don’t want to see anything else. So it usually comes down to what I’ve coined as “partial customs”. A buyer can get a section of the film with their custom requirements in it. Usually, especially in the case of belly punching, they are requested to be back to back via restraint of some sort– hanging, AOH, being held, etc. BUT I personally completely and wholeheartedly agree. Producers film what custom buyers request though. 😉

Fabio
Fabio

I think its an issue only when the blows are back to back to back. Its so annoying when a producer films the fight with 10 belly punches all delivered in the same turn. They need to be spread out CREATIVELY thru the fight. Zen is a perfect example. The heroine engages in combat, does her best to hold her own until the baddies start to gain the upper hand and it turns into a one sided beat down. I love low blows and belly punches but its super annoying when I see them delivered one after the other then the heroine has just one reaction to all the blows as a whole. Yes we like to see continuous blows but they dont have to be back to back shots and then its on to the next fetish move. you can keep the pattern of continuous stomach or low blows and still have a well done, creative fight scene. It just depends on how they get incorporated into the fight. The heroine can dodge, block then get punched in the gut, kicked behind the knee, she falls, knee to the face, now shes on all fours kick to the stomach, she rolls to her back, missed gut stomp she gets up throws punch and gets countered with a knee to the gut, she folds over gets reverse bearhug ect ect. That way you keep the repetitiveness going but in a fresh way. Then once it turns into a one sided beatdown I wouldnt mind seeing back to back blows to the fetish areas as a form of torture or humiliation and “breaking” the superheroine which we all want to see. I guess Id just have to order a custom to explain it best haha. Do I make sense?

leviathan (Eves Husband)

@bogie:
I can’t speak for other producers but for me its become quite obvious when someone is looking for a low cost custom and when its legitimate advice.

It all revolves around the level of detail. for example can you spot which one wants a low cost custom and which is giving real insight?

1) I notice that you don’t ever have models wear pantyhose. there are quite a few of us who like pantyhose and if you offered that it would result in more sales for you

2) I notice you never do cobalt blue tights with shimmering sparkles in the tights. if you offered that there would be dozens of people buying it from you

I get several emails like this every week from people looking for low cost customs. Its become obvious when they are offering real insight and when they want cheap customs. its usually about the detail

Logan

@bogie: it depends on the suggestions. And the amount of detail. And how many people want to see the same thing. I’ve taken suggestions off here all the time. I’ve even posted on social media to give an idea during filming for a move or scenario that could be implemented and used it. It’s when the suggestions go against what I know does and doesn’t sell. We’ve gotten repeated suggestions for things I’ve tried and personally know will not sell so I don’t do it.

Logan

@HorseWithNoName: and then the first complaint will be that there wasn’t enough fighting or it wasn’t executed well enough. Tried that in the past with a few videos in 2013. Didn’t work.

bogie
bogie

I often wonder if, when we offer suggestions to producers, they don’t think we’re cheapskates trying to get a custom for free! Logan?

bogie
bogie

@ Logan. Thanks, your insights are always appreciated
@ Levianthan. Lol….I think I spotted it. I’ll couch my requests for low-cut costumes and ots carries in more general terms in future.Many thanks.

HorseWithNoName
HorseWithNoName

@ Chillyplasma: I agree 100 % with your second paragraph. Kinda proves my point, does it not. And “depth and purpose” does sound good.

But: yes, even porn can come in many different flavors. As do fetishes. I feel if perhaps a little less time was spent on working out fight scenes and more on research i.e. what kind of input can one gain from the world of fashion, glam-fetish sites and (shocker) comic books, there could be some surprising new ways of how to approach this genre.

HorseWithNoName
HorseWithNoName

@ bogie: Shakespeare would have written a great heroine peril movie or two, me thinks.

A far fetched idea? Not really, considering that his contemporary and fellow playwright Christopher Marlowe but some steamy sex scenes into his plays that would make 50 Shades and even major porn companies blush. Dirty sailors and a king getting it on. Ok, gay porn stuff, put that was Marlowe’s thing.

Chillyplasma
Chillyplasma

When it comes to repetitiveness the thing to remember is that this genre is porn. You can disagree with that all you want but the truth is that if these videos didn’t make tent-poles in pants then they wouldn’t be bought.
Porn by it’s nature has to be the same. If your fetish is seeing a heroine in a bearhug then that’s what you have to see every time. The other thing about porn is that the ‘same’ thing becomes less stimulating for many people each time they see it, i.e. they get bored.
The good thing is that the people who are complaining about repetitiveness are the minority and can be safely ignored… they’ve watched too much of it and trying to meet their increasing demands for more stimulation is never going to be possible.
Remember it’s not repetition for someone buying their first video or who only buys one or two a year.

That all being said there are different ways to do the same thing. I’ve offered producers twists on doing the same things differently, but I can’t recall any of them being used. I was particularly disappointed when one wasn’t used as it allowed all the usual fetish elements but actually gave the heroine some depth and purpose.

bogie
bogie

It IS hot to mention Shakespeare, but I did mean ‘not’.

bogie
bogie

Hot to mention Shakespeare.

bogie
bogie

Fitzgerald…Hemingway….on a Heroine Peril board. Who knew? You guys are good!

HorseWithNoName
HorseWithNoName

@ Gil: my point excactly. People, in this case the editors, were open to more outside the box choices simply because they had to do something. As long as the ship is sailing smoothly, no need to change course apparently. But woe is me once sales start slipping. That why DC is pushing their new “creator-driven” line after their great idea of “let’s all prentend it is the 1990s all over again, look Rob Leifeld is writing most of our books” failed.

As long as the trains run on time everything is in order. And then you will have someone willing to take a little risk and with risk might come failure but also rewards. I am thinking of TBFE who had their fans and who at one time had guys like The Rye and Logan working for them. Until recently they very much seemed like a niche player in a niche market, at least to me. For them at least, “Redwing” must have been a big risk i.e. losing some of their loyal fans who were into their prior approach. I do not know what motivated them to try this bold new direction. And yet that little movie put them firmly on the map.

Looking at this genre I feel very much reminded of the very early 1950s with tons of comic books that rode whatever wave was en vogue. Al Feldstein changed all that when he argued to his new publisher William Gaines “why not do our own thing instead of following the market and copying others”. EC Comics became the number one brand in their segment of books, so much so, that they had to be brought low. Or back in the early 1960s when a little company put out tons of books that featured a new monster but basically the same plot day in and day out. That, until the publisher told his editor that maybe he should try Superheroes since they were about to make a comeback. And yet the editor of this little company did not copy their competition, but took a much darker approach to superheroes, basically the excact opposite of what the market leader was doing. Risky, sure, but we all know how the Marvel story goes.

But as long as the trains run on time, the conductors will tell you what mighty fine trains these are!

And about Fitzgerald (love the guy and his crazy wife): it’s been said that there are no new plots since the Greek tragedies. That did not stop a guy like Shakespeare. And was he a very commercial writer? Sure he was. Nothing wrong with writing something that has an audience, but nobody will ever say, man, all these Shakespeare plays are all the same. He became a success in his time because there was every time something new for his audience. And surely he put in a lot of “low blows and bearhugs” to please the crowd, but he also told a new stories or interesting new versions of stories at least, while keeping his fans happy.

No, I don’t expect producers of peril movies to compete with Shakespeare, not even with Frank Miller, and I most certainly don’t want anybody to risk the bank on a flight of fancy i.e. “I have this great idea nobody has tried before (oh, boy), put whenever the ball lands in your court, strike it as hard as you can, like Feldstein and Lee did. Or TBFE apparently.

Gil
Gil

@Horse
Very well stated. And, of course, Miller and Moore got their creative chops going with books that were low sellers and on the verge of cancellation – ‘Swamp Thing’ and ‘Daredevil’ respectively – the Editors were willing to take risks, because , well…they had nothing to lose.
Repetitive? I think it all in how you define the word. Fitzgerald, rather famously (and probably after having one too many..) noted “there are only five plots”.. Who am I to argue with him? I will argue, though, that with more female action roles in mainstream movies and tv …did anyone else see Black Canary get the living crap kicked out of her by a villain the other night?…notions about what is acceptable or not in female action dramas might be changing.
Yes, have seen pre-Hayes Code Hollywood…the first couple of Tarzan movies featured beautiful Maureen O’Sullivan in what we today would call a ‘bikini’ :)…and this reinforces my point that times and conditions are forever changing. “It’s all been done before” is at once the truest and most inaccurate statement ever made. IMHO , of course!

HorseWithNoName
HorseWithNoName

@ Gil: I can’t say that I have seen pornography that old, outside of the faux bit in Dr. Phibes 🙂

But I would argue that a beautiful woman is a beautiful woman independent of when she lived. Take Gloria Swanson in her young years when she worked with Erich von Stroheim. Even today she would be considered one of the most gorgeous women. And a lot of people have it wrong: mainstream Hollywood productions of the 1920s and up to the early 1930s were much more free in their depiction of erotic elements. Heck, even “King Kong” had to be censored in some very conservative states of the USA, because certain scenes with Fay Wray were too hot. The Hays Code changed all that unfortunately. And yet today we believe ourselves so much more liberal and free-wheeling than in those old days.

And I agree that for a superheroine peril movie to work there needs to be some sort of plot. A “Watchmen” in our genre would be great 🙂

What I find so interesting is that before “Watchmen” and “The Dark Knight Returns” hit, a lot of the writers in the field were saying that all the good stories had already been told, and they were just re-hashing the same old plots. And when those books appeared, first as maxi / mini series respectively, they were met with a lot of criticism from these “older” writers who had so comfortably settled into their belief, that all the “good stories had been told” and that you can’t re-invent the comic book i.e. that you simply had to repeat what had come before.

Kinda like how some will tell you how the superheroine peril genre is. Nothing new under the sun and for good reasons.

Thankfully Moore and Miller saw that differently in the world of comic books. I don’t even think they did what they did on purpose, like Dennis O’Neil had tried when he tried to introduce “realism” into comics in the 1970s, but Alan Moore and Frank Miller “just” went out to tell a story that had not been told and they had the talent to back it up.

So yes, it is possible to change something and to create a “classic” or two in the process 🙂

Gil
Gil

Boy, I wonder if ‘Foot Fetish’ forums ever get this deep?

@Horse….Poe’s mysterious death certainly fueled his posthumous reputation. Like Jimi Hendrix, he became much more popular after he died! Steven King’s excellent survey ‘Murder Inc.’ is a must read if you (like me) have been reading horror fiction for a long time. William Castle had ideas that were considerably ahead of their time, but , agree, his films did not age well.
‘Watchmen’ was a game changer in the world of comics. It literally changed the entire genre of superhero fiction….it was ‘Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Heart’s Club Band’ and ‘Ulysses’ all rolled into one..And, like those, some (perhaps many readers of this board) would hold that the changes it brought about were not necessarily for the better. In many ‘SHiB’ films, I see an almost conscious nostalgia for a time when comics had clearer lines between good and evil; men and women; strength and weakness. I continue to hold out hope ; probably because of the obviously intelligent and dedicated producers here, that we are still due for the ‘Watchmen’ of Superheroine Peril films!
Has anyone here ever seen a pornographic movie from the early 1920’s or 30’s? Take away the obvious cultural changes, attractiveness of actresses, better tech, etc. and I would argue that they are largely indistinguishable from mainstream porn today. However crude, however amateurish, a SHiB film has to have a plot…acting…motivations..and a premise. None of these are necessary, it seems to me, in any other form of erotica. I’ve always thought this is why you find so much intelligent commentary on SHiB boards, and so little of it elsewhere! Okay, I’ll stop now…more snow to shovel!

kained
kained

One thing I’ve noticed is people complaining about Cali Logan appearing as Batgirl on DTWrestling too much; whereas for myself, I can’t get enough of Cali Logan as Batgirl, being outnumbered in beat downs. Only issue is I can’t afford the videos!!

LQQKn4aFox
LQQKn4aFox

C’mon guys this is fetish peril. U can’t ask for a whole lot. Producers are limited. They can only do so much. They jus alternate, go’n back and forth or what’s hot again or in demand again.Then like every good thing that must come to an end. Then they go back to something from the past and refresh it again until that gets old …..again. The only difference is new girls/models and costumes/outfits.

RDH
RDH

Just like to say, I love everything which has been produced by alot of the big companies. Favourite being NGC.
I guess you could say alot of the stuff has been done before, specific moves/holds/ scenarios. But, so what? I will happily pay my money and I have never been let down.
Heroines in peril scenarios have been going for a very long time, from the early comics, black and white western movies (being tied to railway tracks etc etc) all the way up to now.
My girlfriend and I roleplay scenarios, buying costumes etc, just for a bit of fun.
Im a massive bearhug fan, ive seen many over the years, but never have they gotten monotomous for me.
So, I just hope producers keep on making more and more of these fantastic films/photo shots etc, and as long as they do, I will keep buying.

Decendingskulls
Decendingskulls

Not for nothing, but this has to be the most “first world problems” issue on record.

“My fetish clips are too consistent!”

Logan

@deathrider: I think this genre, from what I’ve noticed over the years anyway, is not about treating women as equals to men. It’s about taking a sexy dominant female figure for the most part, proving she’s at the top, and then humiliating her and defeat on her to the point where she is still who she is, but now a very broken version– all depicted in various fantasy situations. To treat her as equal would be to make her win half the time and lose half the time and not degrade her. These guys wouldn’t degrade other men. And for most viewers, the bigger the defeat, the better. Can’t get much worse than a gang rape then death. Allowing opportunity for variances in between.

deathrider
deathrider

@Logan – the repetitiveness I’m talking about now is the groping, rape. That seems to be the biggest pattern lately. When I say getting back to basics I meant going back to it again as in kinda like what we see in early Zen Pictures. Women being treated like men and no different.

leviathan (Eves Husband)

@decendingskulls
Man…. you are like a producers wed ream come true.
good on ya mate.

wish more were like you.

Logan

@decendingskulls: Absolutely! Aw, another reggae club? Oh wait, karaoke?!!? Hell yeah!

decendingskulls
decendingskulls

LOL @ Logan, well said.
I think someone – Alex Bettinger if I remember correctly – summed it up best and most accurately and insightfully when he said that it only seems repetitive if the vidoes are catering to fetishes other than yours. When they’re catering to your own fetishes, become like a wine connoisseur who doesn’t mind the repetitiveness of drinking wine all the time because you enjoy each variation and subtlety. But when they’re catering to other fetishes, you’re like aw man wine again? C’mon!

Logan

I think the funny thing about the whole debate of repetitiveness is that it’s all based on a market that is set in it’s own ways. Especially those who have been watching these films for over a decade or so. There are basic elements that will never go away and requests that will always be high-sellers. The funniest comments I see are the “it would have been better if THIS happened” or “they should have done THIS”. No matter how you tell a story, there will always be something you can think of to do differently. It won’t make it better. If we did it THAT way, then the original way never would have been done and THAT way would have been better. The most repetitive thing I really see in making these films and watching the reviews and threads for not only my films, but those of other producers, is the level in which viewers are insatiable. This will always be the case, but when it applies to this particular thread and situation in question, here it is: Viewers buy the same thing, ask for the same thing, over and over – most of our custom orders are for the same things. This is all fine. BUT, you cannot turn around in the same breath and complain that things are stale and monotonous. That’s hypocritical. And some viewers who point out that some producers don’t make what they like– that’s not repetition, it’s simply a product you don’t want to see– and the best part about it is– you get to save your money when there’s a video out that doesn’t suit your tastes! 😉

decendingskulls
decendingskulls

@ Leviathan I am in 100% agreement with you about fans promoting videos they like. I do that all the time. I also hire producers to make me customs from time to time, and I’ve learned about myself that when I do, I get as involved as they will let me. I tend to order customs that are fairly specific, but even so I want to see the movie succeed financially, to see what I can do to help to that end, and if there’s a market for it I will find it. I have some post-production skills (amateur but strong enough to be of service depending on the studio) and time and passion to invest in the project to make it as good as it can be, and once it’s released, I am eager to be on the front lines promoting it, in some cases finding avenues of promotion the producer was not aware of. For me, making superheroine movies seems like a dream job (outside looking in to be sure), but so it’s fun for me to get involved even in a minor way. I want to buy the movies that feature what I like, and I want to promote them, and the customs I commission, because I know that may be the only hope I have of seeing more like that in the future, and I want this to continue. It’s common sense really. Wishing for something doesn’t make it happen. You’ve got to have some skin in the game, as they say.

HorseWithNoName
HorseWithNoName

@ Gil: welcome to the discussion. Yes, true about Poe who also invented the armchair detective genre just like that, sorry Sherlock Holmes fans out there 🙂 An interesting bit: all this dark stuff about his persona, hanging out at graveyards at night and so forth, thinking dark thoughts, was made up by his publishers after his death to sell his works even better.

And yes, very true about that line from Watchmen. While Moore is sometimes a bit on the nose (the line: “a fat man stepped on Osterman’s watch” next to a panel with a picture of the atomic bomb) Watchmen is and always will be the comic series that has most influenced me on so many levels even in the way I do business.

A funny thing: when Kieron Gillen was promoting his Young Avengers series, he or some clever guy at Marvel wrote: “When a character in our series says “I DID it thirty minutes ago, he means he did IT thirty minutes ago.” I dig such humor a lot 🙂

And about talent: I have this from the Castle of Horror podcast: when Hitchcock made Psycho it was his attempt at doing what William Castle does, except he couldn’t help it but make a true classic “on the cheap”. Food for thought, once again.

bogie
bogie

@ Gil. Thanks for the insights mate. I love this board. It’s a font of knowledge, and not just about the heroine fetish! I haven’t read heaps of Poe, I only have a collection of his short stories, but ‘Masque’ by any standard has to be considered literature, and The Raven is indeed poetry at it’s most expressive.
I think this is called ‘off topic’, but so be it.