Repetitiveness in the Heroine Genre

110 Responses

  1. rizo says:

    I think that Descendingskulls worded some of our frustrations pretty eloquently. I feel that there needs to be more interaction with some of the creatives in the super heroine fetish community and some research done in heroine peril genres both in the mainstream and underground.

    There can be a smart, delicate balance created to show new things in our genre. We have all gotten tired of the “Gargantua bear hugs WW” scenario or the “Bane backbreakers”. There’s SO MUCH more out there though! One of the examples I have given more recently is this scene from the WW TV show where she faces a laser machine:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vLFJAlMVYs

    It’s ridiculously easy to rig something up like that in a Rye video for example, and draw it out a bit longer and have WW succumb to the blasts.

    Another rather creative (and smartly written) series is by Richvillaino over at deviant art:
    https://richvilliano.deviantart.com

    If you look through some of his stories you will notice the great homages he gives to the WW show along with creative some of his own quite original and peril heavy content. I could see a few producers collaborating and using some of Rich’s work to spice up some of the stale material we’re getting today. Here’s an example of a story I loved from Rich’s Work:

    https://richvilliano.deviantart.com/gallery/47974350/Third-Rail

    Notice the following panels where Rich used a totally new peril element that he came up with himself:
    https://richvilliano.deviantart.com/art/Third-Rail-13-433951524

    https://richvilliano.deviantart.com/art/Third-Rail-14-part-1-434456515

    https://richvilliano.deviantart.com/art/Third-Rail-14-part-2-434467074

    https://richvilliano.deviantart.com/art/Third-Rail-15-436077477

    https://richvilliano.deviantart.com/art/Third-Rail-16-436331671

    https://richvilliano.deviantart.com/art/Third-Rail-17-436557478

    Now granted, I don’t know what production value can be brought to create such scenes, but the important thing I think, and as Descendingskulls mentioned, is to pry open that treasure trove of super heroine fetish in the mainstream and in the underground and allow it to again inspire your work.

    I know the temptation of producers is to recreate the simple elements that work and to sell them efficiently, but I’m just saying that taking the time to look at new stuff can reinvigorate you creatively.

    I personally actually don’t mind if we have some repetitiveness in the genre (for example i am a huge fan of beatdowns and am presently downloading Never Say Never to judge for myself) but changing the formula around does not hurt at all, even if you take some time off to do the research.

    I know that Rye posted that his groundbreaking work is going to focus on the RYE-UK stuff but I think to all the producers, digging through the wealth of material online can really help. And, as i mentioned on another forum, I would gladly put my money where my mouth is to recreate some of the above scenarios in custom movies.

    I can really see a bright future long term for the peril genre. it just needs to step out of it’s routine once in a while too.

    0
  2. Gene says:

    I second decendingskulls comments about writing being important and would like to add that specifically good Dialogue writing is something that could really add efficacy to these movies without the cost of production going up at all. When dialogue is done well, particularly when it is the bad guys breaking the heroines with demeaning bad guy speeches it is just awesome.

    0
  3. horsewithnoname says:

    @ decendingskulls: very good post. I agree with you 100%.

    0
  4. biilbo says:

    I’ll keep it short. My biggest gripe at the moment is the cast of nearly all producers failing to ‘sell’ the action. If yoy put on just about any peril scene from any producer and close your eyes it sounds just like porn. Its why i never liked any of the jap stuff. I have said over and again too that big finishing moves dont exist. You dont need to have stunt men/women to do it, just clever editting. Bluestone has the right idea with the backbreaker scenes but its few and far between. Ive not purchaced a movie now since before christmas because nothing has stood out as a ‘must buy’

    0
  5. decendingskulls says:

    I often preach that less is more, and the custom I just had commissioned is evidence of that mindset. However tonight I’m going to submit to you a very different argument. See, that custom I had done was something I kinda had to get out of my system, and there’s certainly nothing wrong with something like that. I just wanted some raw smut for and I wanted it done my way for a reasonable price, and I couldn’t be happier with how faithfully the producer and actors carried out the project.

    However, I think what we as a community of producers, fans, and everyone in between need to do to move forward on to greater things to keep things interesting, is we need to take the most basic lesson of video entertainment: We need to go back to writing. We inhabit a community full of writers and role players, don’t we? But do me a favor and take a look through the pages of new releases advertised on this site and tell me how many you think would have made an interesting story or role play. Not many at all. Pages and pages of releases. Very little writing. It does seem to me that we’re relying too heavily on a formula, and too focused on what fetishes get covered and just trying to repackage it a little differently each time.

    Now I can hear you already starting to voice your counter-argument in your head. That too much writing has led us astray in the past, and too much writing leads to overly complex convoluted stories, lack of fetish material, and high price tags. But it doesn’t have to be that way at all. I would take a well-written movie over production values any day of the week, over and over again, so there’s at least part of your answer to the cost problem. Secondly good writing does not have to mean complex writing and it doesn’t have to mean un-sexy writing. I have seen better writing – better role play set-ups in crappy 90’s Saturday morning cartoons than in most of these superheroine films, and you KNOW they kept it simple. They just did what they had to do – created characters with personalities and motivations, and created situations for them to deal with. Nothing fancy.

    There are writers who can write an interesting story, but fail to deliver on the sexual fetish aspects. There are writers who can lay out sexy action sequences, but write characters with no personality or reason for being and nothing moving the plot anywhere. Then there are writers who can balance both of these styles and merge them into a single cohesive story where the plot effects the sex and the sex effects the plot.

    To me, Alex David’s ‘Super Heroine League – The Dark Seduction’ was a perfect example of how to write for a heroine peril movie. It was not at all complicated, but you could just feel how well planned out it was. It was about 60 minutes long in total, and there wasn’t a dull moment to be found. That’s not an opinion that’s irrefutable fact. The mere fact that customers shelled out $60 for it and the vast majority came back saying it was money well spent speaks VOLUMES, because you know how tough it is to sell a $60 superheroine fetish clip. I can tell you, because I read the script before the movie was produced, that the writing laid the foundation for all of it. Without good writing, good movies would simply not exist.

    Many of Secret Hero film’s recent movies have had a well-written role-play vibe to them, some more than others. In particular, ‘Lady Victory’ seemed to be very confident. But then it was a bit of a let down for me in the sexual category. It was just a tad too tame for me.

    For the next well-written movies I have to go back to TBFE’s Blue Swan and Redwing. These were not exactly home runs as far as writing, but they were still clearly head and shoulders above much of their competition at the time. They struck an admirable balance between characters, action storyboarding, and sexual fetish. I felt that if anything they suffer a bit from relying too much on “the beatdown” sequences, which for me seem to get overly drawn out in many of these films, but at least in TBFE’s they were well produced and exciting.

    Recent ‘Defeated Heroines’ movies seem to be following a similar model lately and seem suddenly like they might be a direct competitor to TBFE. They both have great production values, great acting and fight sequences and sets, creative costumes and characters, and they both have dark tones and adult sexual content and fairly predictable heroine defeat outcomes. They both seem to flirt with writing, just enough to create a plausible world for the characters to live in, but usually not much further. Overall Defeated Heroines formula lately is to point blank drop a beautiful heroine into a meat grinder, and it works very well, but even that could be better with more finesse.

    Fly or Die showed a definite creative spark in their willingness to create very original and offbeat characters, but that one was again a bit too tame for me, and the writing was a little too straightforward, but it showed some promise.

    Steve Noir seems to be playing by his own rules these days with his Fear Girl series so it’s almost not fair to mention him here. He seems to be renouncing writing outright in favor of exploring atmosphere and mystery. Only time will tell the results of the experiment, but he seems intent to forge his own path, as he did with his ‘Gang Thang’ series. I respect that.

    My point in noting all of these releases to simply to paint the picture of the current state of writing in this genre, to prove my point.

    With so many releases, there almost seems to be a rush to create more movies, a rush to hone in on the perfect formula. A rush to cash in on the craze, perhaps? If anyone wants to be better than this, if there is truly a desire to be better, I say sit back and have a glass of wine or have a smoke and just brew on ideas. Chill out. The whole world is moving too fast. Stop trying to figure us out and get personal with yourself. Write a story – collaborate with someone – and then figure out how to edit it down to make it into an affordable movie. Go online and chat and role play and find some bizarre unique kink you didn’t know about that someone has, and let some creative juices flow a bit. Go back to your roots.

    0
  6. in the jungle says:

    In my point of view the problem is not the repetitiveness. The problem is that you already know whats going to happen in the movies before they start, you don´t need a preview. Nothing surprises you. You see some pictures and it´s not difficult to imagine. It is always the same story. Even in a fetish world, you need to be surprised sometimes.

    0
  7. Ambassador says:

    How one executes it could lesson the repetitiveness. Football, baseball, and other “ball” sports are basically repetitiveness, BUT how it is executed is what I feel brings us back for more. To watch a world champion caliber athlete play the game is much more enticing than say a back up or third stringer. A couple of renowned writers/ film makers have both said that the minds eye is the best camera. (I’m interpreting) but you get the jist. So if it is written well, shot well and the actress SELLS the H*** out of it, i’ll come back for more of the same. There are plenty of amazing explicit blow by blow move by move stories out there to draw off of. Not saying that one should “steal” but use some or part of a story to turn into film. If I had the funds, there are half a dozen I’d pay to have made, exactly as they are written.
    I like some of the lengthier retorts here, never know when or where you’ll learn something new.
    Also as I’ve said before, to terminate some of the problems that arise of how a heroine is defeated, use a heroine that is simply a bada** like Sonja or Black Scorpion, Black Widow. Has no “super” powers, just a greater than thou attitude that need to be diminished.

    0
  8. decendingskulls says:

    @Dman what about Jean Grey?
    Mmmmmm redheads…

    0
  9. Henry says:

    While fetishes tends to remain the same for people after the development age, changing the scope of the film might find people with other fetishes, after all, you are not targeting the same people time after time.
    As to the repetitiveness, there are lots of things you can do that does not involving changing the set of fetish elements involved, things like a plot, dialogue, setting, background, personality, the order of fetish elements, why these elements are applied, in what situation are they applied, these, rather than new costumes or same generic characters, are a true test of a writer’s creativity.
    Selling the same thing over and over again, with similar elements in all categories, will get you money sure, but the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” approaches so often underestimates the “brokeness” of an object, resulting ultimately in the inevitable downfall in the long term.

    0
  10. Dman says:

    What’s repetitive are the characters. 99% of the heroine videos are of wonder woman or supergirl.

    Why not use some of the many other heroines out there : Rogue, Storm, Vixen, etc.

    0
  11. Dr Yuya says:

    I stand by my statement that a successful producer of a particular fetish material has little to no reason to change their fare.

    Why do I believe fetish material doesn’t need to change as much as other forms of entertainment? Simple…our fetishes are more often than not rooted in our minds from a very early age…and pretty much always derived from the basic and natural sexual urges we feel. Sure…fetishes can get crazy and even sometimes seem like they have nothing to do with nature…but in the end they do…they’re just our in intelligence layering stuff on the more primal desire.

    Nature doesn’t change much…this I don’t believe the attached fetish will either. Am I wrong? Tell me then, how many of you past the age of twenty or so have really developed a new “porn preference” that’s superceded the old…simply because some company out there offered a creative change and you took to it (meaning you had no real interest beforehand…and the creative work itself convinced you)? I couldn’t imagine there being too many of you.

    Given this idea…that’s why it seems crazy to me when a company scoring nice profits with a proven fan base (like Zen) decides it’s time to change. Illogical…and financially risky.

    0
  12. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ Lumpy: you are always more than welcome to disagree with me as everybody else is.
    My posts are solely from my perspective and I am always eager to read other people’s opinions. How boring it would be if we all agreed! As far as I can tell, there is no right and no wrong 🙂

    0
  13. Ray says:

    I’ve been loving this genre ever since I stumbled upon it. I personally think it’s no so much the action of fights scenes or peril since I can’t say that there are way too many ways to vary that but I personally now look more for the aesthetics of the character and how they can connect with me. I would like more variety of characters, even if it might start falling out of the Super heroines in peril theme but maybe look into incorporating some video game characters as well. I don’t think some of those costumes would be that expensive to reproduce. Sometimes, I would be playing a game and those near failed missions would be great peril scenes. Like Resident Evil, I let Jill fail more than few times to watch her peril or Final Fight 2 with Maki, let her fail to see her struggling before you can hit the start button.

    Some of my favorite videos from this genre were the ones that made me connected with the character. I think of Rocky, just punches but since it was Rocky throwing the punches, it was exciting. If we didn’t know Rocky and it was some random guy just starting to throw punches, I don’t think it would’ve been nearly as exciting. I also like when you want the villain to win. Well, for me at least, just like Rye’s Enthusiastic Participation. I could feel for that guy and it made it more satisfying.

    0
  14. Lumpy says:

    Far be it from me to disagree with @Horsewithnoname, the all knowing self appointed moderator of every thread on this site. Thank you oh great one on schooling me as to what type of thread this is.
    The point isn’t to start a new debate on the future of McDonalds, it was to make the point that when something sells you can expect to get more of it.(In other words, 60 years worth of burgers with more decades of that to come)
    As usual you side stepped the point in order to bless us with your ubiquitous insight on everything.
    As far you dismissing my point on guys who don’t like custom videos, I will again take the risk of disagreeing with the great Horse, and say that I have seen customs get posted here and guys list their complaints only to have the producer explain that is was a custom.
    You don’t recall, that’s fine, but I do.

    0
  15. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ Sugercoater: Exactly! And heroine-themed burgers, now that could become a thing 🙂

    I for one consistantly browse on iTunes to look for music I do not yet know. Have “discovered” some great recording artists from all sorts of genres this way over the years. Makes me kinda sad to think of all the great, different music I have not yet “discovered”.

    A side-note: I talked to some girls I know on the weekend who had just seen the 50 Shades movie. They all loved it, telling me it is the best comedy (!) they have seen in months and Dakota is so funny. Have just ordered my ticket 🙂

    0
  16. Sugarcoater says:

    In going with the McDonalds analogy, I would add that people consistently go to McDonalds until one day a new restaurant opens up with a different kind of fare. Suddenly the new restaurant gains popularity because many of the burger fans discover they like the new product more. But until the new restaurant took the chance to open up near the McDonalds and offer a different type of meal, customers didn’t know what else they had available to them.
    I love my Supergirl and Wonder Woman burgers, but I also love the Redwing sandwich.

    0
  17. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ Lumpy: you are aware that this particular thread is under the newly created category “Editorial”, hence should somebody not be interested in a “convoluted discussion” of a certain topic, he / she will not miss much 🙂

    And: I was the one to bring up McDonald’s as an example. Yes, they sell burgers and have been doing so for many years. And yet the recently fired their CEO with many experts claiming that he is not to blame, but the company as such is in dire need of innovation.

    So, something that sells today might not sell tomorrow. I have not been inside a McDonald’s in about two years. Why? It is the same old boring stuff.

    And not everybody posting stuff they would like to see is looking for a custom on the cheap. In this thread alone you will find statements from producers, that now and then they will pick up on those suggestions and examine if there is something there that might appeal to a broader audience. And why not?

    And isn’t it a bit odd that when there is “a video that is different” that it is in fact a custom? And I cannot recall that whenever there was something that was very outside the box and was in fact a custom, that nobody liked it. Miss Pacman comes to mind. I recall that a share of fans did receive it fairly well.

    0
  18. Lumpy says:

    It’s amazing how overly convoluted these discussions can get on this forum.(Of course certain folks here love to hear themselves talk, or read their own words for that matter)
    This really isn’t that complicated. If something sells, then you can bet they’re gonna make more videos like that. McDonalds sells burgers. They’ve been selling them for decades. They are a billion dollar company, not because they offer salads and wraps on occasion. The majority of what they sell is burgers and that is what will continue to be the core of their business.
    Now many guys here who don’t want to spend the money on a custom video like to use this forum to give detailed lists of what they want to see, under the guise of constructive criticism, in the hopes that a producer will make a video tailor made to they’re tastes. I love it when we do get a video that is different and no one on this forum likes it, the producer will often respond with,…”this was a custom”.

    0
  19. Gene says:

    Cool topic. My opinion is that you can’t really have a niche market like the Super-heroines in peril genre without it being repetitive in some way. The reason we all like these films is because they show us things that mainstream film and television doesn’t i.e: Heroines losing to villains, Heroines being sexually demeaned and the more specific elements like bear hugs and throatlifts etc. That naturally leads to repetition in these films, however the devil can be in the details and very small new details can be very exciting: In Hawke vs Firestar from heroine kombat there is a move where Hawke has Firestar in a front on headlock and is punching her back, you don’t see that that often and I found it very sexy. Small things like that are what I hope to see when I purchase a new video. P.S I am still waiting for a producer to create a villainess who uses the Xenia Onatopp stomach crush with the thighs move from Goldeneye. Seriously how has that not been a thing in this genre?

    0
  20. Da Jinx says:

    Cool topic! I like to try new things but I could see where the repetition comes in. Like others has mentioned, budgeting, time constraints and locations usually are the cause for the repitition because it helps producers play it safe and get the video in the time we have available. Also, if something sells, producers are more likely to do it on a regular basis as they know it is what most fans want and they will make money back or even profit from sales.
    I like to try new things but there are certain things that I know that my videos have to include which would ensure they’ll sell. As for characters, I have my original characters but Supergirl and Wonder Woman type characters always sell the most, so I create more videos with them that would help fund my other original character videos. I have a new video coming out in a few days that has more of SciFi background, I’m taking a chance since it’s not the typical superheroine story but it would have some superheroine in peril elements that I and others would enjoy. So, even when producers try something new, there are usually some repetition to ensure most would like it and buy.

    0
  21. Logan says:

    @Fabio: COMPLETELY agree with you, however– most films we do (speaking obviously for my production only) are custom films. MOST custom buyers specifically ask for certain moves to be done——– back to back to back…. because most customs are about on element and they are paying for that and don’t want to see anything else. So it usually comes down to what I’ve coined as “partial customs”. A buyer can get a section of the film with their custom requirements in it. Usually, especially in the case of belly punching, they are requested to be back to back via restraint of some sort– hanging, AOH, being held, etc. BUT I personally completely and wholeheartedly agree. Producers film what custom buyers request though. 😉

    0
  22. Fabio says:

    I think its an issue only when the blows are back to back to back. Its so annoying when a producer films the fight with 10 belly punches all delivered in the same turn. They need to be spread out CREATIVELY thru the fight. Zen is a perfect example. The heroine engages in combat, does her best to hold her own until the baddies start to gain the upper hand and it turns into a one sided beat down. I love low blows and belly punches but its super annoying when I see them delivered one after the other then the heroine has just one reaction to all the blows as a whole. Yes we like to see continuous blows but they dont have to be back to back shots and then its on to the next fetish move. you can keep the pattern of continuous stomach or low blows and still have a well done, creative fight scene. It just depends on how they get incorporated into the fight. The heroine can dodge, block then get punched in the gut, kicked behind the knee, she falls, knee to the face, now shes on all fours kick to the stomach, she rolls to her back, missed gut stomp she gets up throws punch and gets countered with a knee to the gut, she folds over gets reverse bearhug ect ect. That way you keep the repetitiveness going but in a fresh way. Then once it turns into a one sided beatdown I wouldnt mind seeing back to back blows to the fetish areas as a form of torture or humiliation and “breaking” the superheroine which we all want to see. I guess Id just have to order a custom to explain it best haha. Do I make sense?

    0
  23. @bogie:
    I can’t speak for other producers but for me its become quite obvious when someone is looking for a low cost custom and when its legitimate advice.

    It all revolves around the level of detail. for example can you spot which one wants a low cost custom and which is giving real insight?

    1) I notice that you don’t ever have models wear pantyhose. there are quite a few of us who like pantyhose and if you offered that it would result in more sales for you

    2) I notice you never do cobalt blue tights with shimmering sparkles in the tights. if you offered that there would be dozens of people buying it from you

    I get several emails like this every week from people looking for low cost customs. Its become obvious when they are offering real insight and when they want cheap customs. its usually about the detail

    0
  24. Logan says:

    @bogie: it depends on the suggestions. And the amount of detail. And how many people want to see the same thing. I’ve taken suggestions off here all the time. I’ve even posted on social media to give an idea during filming for a move or scenario that could be implemented and used it. It’s when the suggestions go against what I know does and doesn’t sell. We’ve gotten repeated suggestions for things I’ve tried and personally know will not sell so I don’t do it.

    0
  25. Logan says:

    @HorseWithNoName: and then the first complaint will be that there wasn’t enough fighting or it wasn’t executed well enough. Tried that in the past with a few videos in 2013. Didn’t work.

    0
  26. bogie says:

    I often wonder if, when we offer suggestions to producers, they don’t think we’re cheapskates trying to get a custom for free! Logan?

    0
  27. bogie says:

    @ Logan. Thanks, your insights are always appreciated
    @ Levianthan. Lol….I think I spotted it. I’ll couch my requests for low-cut costumes and ots carries in more general terms in future.Many thanks.

    0
  28. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ Chillyplasma: I agree 100 % with your second paragraph. Kinda proves my point, does it not. And “depth and purpose” does sound good.

    But: yes, even porn can come in many different flavors. As do fetishes. I feel if perhaps a little less time was spent on working out fight scenes and more on research i.e. what kind of input can one gain from the world of fashion, glam-fetish sites and (shocker) comic books, there could be some surprising new ways of how to approach this genre.

    0
  29. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ bogie: Shakespeare would have written a great heroine peril movie or two, me thinks.

    A far fetched idea? Not really, considering that his contemporary and fellow playwright Christopher Marlowe but some steamy sex scenes into his plays that would make 50 Shades and even major porn companies blush. Dirty sailors and a king getting it on. Ok, gay porn stuff, put that was Marlowe’s thing.

    0
  30. Chillyplasma says:

    When it comes to repetitiveness the thing to remember is that this genre is porn. You can disagree with that all you want but the truth is that if these videos didn’t make tent-poles in pants then they wouldn’t be bought.
    Porn by it’s nature has to be the same. If your fetish is seeing a heroine in a bearhug then that’s what you have to see every time. The other thing about porn is that the ‘same’ thing becomes less stimulating for many people each time they see it, i.e. they get bored.
    The good thing is that the people who are complaining about repetitiveness are the minority and can be safely ignored… they’ve watched too much of it and trying to meet their increasing demands for more stimulation is never going to be possible.
    Remember it’s not repetition for someone buying their first video or who only buys one or two a year.

    That all being said there are different ways to do the same thing. I’ve offered producers twists on doing the same things differently, but I can’t recall any of them being used. I was particularly disappointed when one wasn’t used as it allowed all the usual fetish elements but actually gave the heroine some depth and purpose.

    0
  31. bogie says:

    It IS hot to mention Shakespeare, but I did mean ‘not’.

    0
  32. bogie says:

    Hot to mention Shakespeare.

    0
  33. bogie says:

    Fitzgerald…Hemingway….on a Heroine Peril board. Who knew? You guys are good!

    0
  34. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ Gil: my point excactly. People, in this case the editors, were open to more outside the box choices simply because they had to do something. As long as the ship is sailing smoothly, no need to change course apparently. But woe is me once sales start slipping. That why DC is pushing their new “creator-driven” line after their great idea of “let’s all prentend it is the 1990s all over again, look Rob Leifeld is writing most of our books” failed.

    As long as the trains run on time everything is in order. And then you will have someone willing to take a little risk and with risk might come failure but also rewards. I am thinking of TBFE who had their fans and who at one time had guys like The Rye and Logan working for them. Until recently they very much seemed like a niche player in a niche market, at least to me. For them at least, “Redwing” must have been a big risk i.e. losing some of their loyal fans who were into their prior approach. I do not know what motivated them to try this bold new direction. And yet that little movie put them firmly on the map.

    Looking at this genre I feel very much reminded of the very early 1950s with tons of comic books that rode whatever wave was en vogue. Al Feldstein changed all that when he argued to his new publisher William Gaines “why not do our own thing instead of following the market and copying others”. EC Comics became the number one brand in their segment of books, so much so, that they had to be brought low. Or back in the early 1960s when a little company put out tons of books that featured a new monster but basically the same plot day in and day out. That, until the publisher told his editor that maybe he should try Superheroes since they were about to make a comeback. And yet the editor of this little company did not copy their competition, but took a much darker approach to superheroes, basically the excact opposite of what the market leader was doing. Risky, sure, but we all know how the Marvel story goes.

    But as long as the trains run on time, the conductors will tell you what mighty fine trains these are!

    And about Fitzgerald (love the guy and his crazy wife): it’s been said that there are no new plots since the Greek tragedies. That did not stop a guy like Shakespeare. And was he a very commercial writer? Sure he was. Nothing wrong with writing something that has an audience, but nobody will ever say, man, all these Shakespeare plays are all the same. He became a success in his time because there was every time something new for his audience. And surely he put in a lot of “low blows and bearhugs” to please the crowd, but he also told a new stories or interesting new versions of stories at least, while keeping his fans happy.

    No, I don’t expect producers of peril movies to compete with Shakespeare, not even with Frank Miller, and I most certainly don’t want anybody to risk the bank on a flight of fancy i.e. “I have this great idea nobody has tried before (oh, boy), put whenever the ball lands in your court, strike it as hard as you can, like Feldstein and Lee did. Or TBFE apparently.

    0
  35. Gil says:

    @Horse
    Very well stated. And, of course, Miller and Moore got their creative chops going with books that were low sellers and on the verge of cancellation – ‘Swamp Thing’ and ‘Daredevil’ respectively – the Editors were willing to take risks, because , well…they had nothing to lose.
    Repetitive? I think it all in how you define the word. Fitzgerald, rather famously (and probably after having one too many..) noted “there are only five plots”.. Who am I to argue with him? I will argue, though, that with more female action roles in mainstream movies and tv …did anyone else see Black Canary get the living crap kicked out of her by a villain the other night?…notions about what is acceptable or not in female action dramas might be changing.
    Yes, have seen pre-Hayes Code Hollywood…the first couple of Tarzan movies featured beautiful Maureen O’Sullivan in what we today would call a ‘bikini’ :)…and this reinforces my point that times and conditions are forever changing. “It’s all been done before” is at once the truest and most inaccurate statement ever made. IMHO , of course!

    0
  36. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ Gil: I can’t say that I have seen pornography that old, outside of the faux bit in Dr. Phibes 🙂

    But I would argue that a beautiful woman is a beautiful woman independent of when she lived. Take Gloria Swanson in her young years when she worked with Erich von Stroheim. Even today she would be considered one of the most gorgeous women. And a lot of people have it wrong: mainstream Hollywood productions of the 1920s and up to the early 1930s were much more free in their depiction of erotic elements. Heck, even “King Kong” had to be censored in some very conservative states of the USA, because certain scenes with Fay Wray were too hot. The Hays Code changed all that unfortunately. And yet today we believe ourselves so much more liberal and free-wheeling than in those old days.

    And I agree that for a superheroine peril movie to work there needs to be some sort of plot. A “Watchmen” in our genre would be great 🙂

    What I find so interesting is that before “Watchmen” and “The Dark Knight Returns” hit, a lot of the writers in the field were saying that all the good stories had already been told, and they were just re-hashing the same old plots. And when those books appeared, first as maxi / mini series respectively, they were met with a lot of criticism from these “older” writers who had so comfortably settled into their belief, that all the “good stories had been told” and that you can’t re-invent the comic book i.e. that you simply had to repeat what had come before.

    Kinda like how some will tell you how the superheroine peril genre is. Nothing new under the sun and for good reasons.

    Thankfully Moore and Miller saw that differently in the world of comic books. I don’t even think they did what they did on purpose, like Dennis O’Neil had tried when he tried to introduce “realism” into comics in the 1970s, but Alan Moore and Frank Miller “just” went out to tell a story that had not been told and they had the talent to back it up.

    So yes, it is possible to change something and to create a “classic” or two in the process 🙂

    0
  37. Gil says:

    Boy, I wonder if ‘Foot Fetish’ forums ever get this deep?

    @Horse….Poe’s mysterious death certainly fueled his posthumous reputation. Like Jimi Hendrix, he became much more popular after he died! Steven King’s excellent survey ‘Murder Inc.’ is a must read if you (like me) have been reading horror fiction for a long time. William Castle had ideas that were considerably ahead of their time, but , agree, his films did not age well.
    ‘Watchmen’ was a game changer in the world of comics. It literally changed the entire genre of superhero fiction….it was ‘Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Heart’s Club Band’ and ‘Ulysses’ all rolled into one..And, like those, some (perhaps many readers of this board) would hold that the changes it brought about were not necessarily for the better. In many ‘SHiB’ films, I see an almost conscious nostalgia for a time when comics had clearer lines between good and evil; men and women; strength and weakness. I continue to hold out hope ; probably because of the obviously intelligent and dedicated producers here, that we are still due for the ‘Watchmen’ of Superheroine Peril films!
    Has anyone here ever seen a pornographic movie from the early 1920’s or 30’s? Take away the obvious cultural changes, attractiveness of actresses, better tech, etc. and I would argue that they are largely indistinguishable from mainstream porn today. However crude, however amateurish, a SHiB film has to have a plot…acting…motivations..and a premise. None of these are necessary, it seems to me, in any other form of erotica. I’ve always thought this is why you find so much intelligent commentary on SHiB boards, and so little of it elsewhere! Okay, I’ll stop now…more snow to shovel!

    0
  38. kained says:

    One thing I’ve noticed is people complaining about Cali Logan appearing as Batgirl on DTWrestling too much; whereas for myself, I can’t get enough of Cali Logan as Batgirl, being outnumbered in beat downs. Only issue is I can’t afford the videos!!

    0
  39. LQQKn4aFox says:

    C’mon guys this is fetish peril. U can’t ask for a whole lot. Producers are limited. They can only do so much. They jus alternate, go’n back and forth or what’s hot again or in demand again.Then like every good thing that must come to an end. Then they go back to something from the past and refresh it again until that gets old …..again. The only difference is new girls/models and costumes/outfits.

    0
  40. RDH says:

    Just like to say, I love everything which has been produced by alot of the big companies. Favourite being NGC.
    I guess you could say alot of the stuff has been done before, specific moves/holds/ scenarios. But, so what? I will happily pay my money and I have never been let down.
    Heroines in peril scenarios have been going for a very long time, from the early comics, black and white western movies (being tied to railway tracks etc etc) all the way up to now.
    My girlfriend and I roleplay scenarios, buying costumes etc, just for a bit of fun.
    Im a massive bearhug fan, ive seen many over the years, but never have they gotten monotomous for me.
    So, I just hope producers keep on making more and more of these fantastic films/photo shots etc, and as long as they do, I will keep buying.

    0
  41. Decendingskulls says:

    Not for nothing, but this has to be the most “first world problems” issue on record.

    “My fetish clips are too consistent!”

    0
  42. Logan says:

    @deathrider: I think this genre, from what I’ve noticed over the years anyway, is not about treating women as equals to men. It’s about taking a sexy dominant female figure for the most part, proving she’s at the top, and then humiliating her and defeat on her to the point where she is still who she is, but now a very broken version– all depicted in various fantasy situations. To treat her as equal would be to make her win half the time and lose half the time and not degrade her. These guys wouldn’t degrade other men. And for most viewers, the bigger the defeat, the better. Can’t get much worse than a gang rape then death. Allowing opportunity for variances in between.

    0
  43. deathrider says:

    @Logan – the repetitiveness I’m talking about now is the groping, rape. That seems to be the biggest pattern lately. When I say getting back to basics I meant going back to it again as in kinda like what we see in early Zen Pictures. Women being treated like men and no different.

    0
  44. @decendingskulls
    Man…. you are like a producers wed ream come true.
    good on ya mate.

    wish more were like you.

    0
  45. Logan says:

    @decendingskulls: Absolutely! Aw, another reggae club? Oh wait, karaoke?!!? Hell yeah!

    0
  46. decendingskulls says:

    LOL @ Logan, well said.
    I think someone – Alex Bettinger if I remember correctly – summed it up best and most accurately and insightfully when he said that it only seems repetitive if the vidoes are catering to fetishes other than yours. When they’re catering to your own fetishes, become like a wine connoisseur who doesn’t mind the repetitiveness of drinking wine all the time because you enjoy each variation and subtlety. But when they’re catering to other fetishes, you’re like aw man wine again? C’mon!

    0
  47. Logan says:

    I think the funny thing about the whole debate of repetitiveness is that it’s all based on a market that is set in it’s own ways. Especially those who have been watching these films for over a decade or so. There are basic elements that will never go away and requests that will always be high-sellers. The funniest comments I see are the “it would have been better if THIS happened” or “they should have done THIS”. No matter how you tell a story, there will always be something you can think of to do differently. It won’t make it better. If we did it THAT way, then the original way never would have been done and THAT way would have been better. The most repetitive thing I really see in making these films and watching the reviews and threads for not only my films, but those of other producers, is the level in which viewers are insatiable. This will always be the case, but when it applies to this particular thread and situation in question, here it is: Viewers buy the same thing, ask for the same thing, over and over – most of our custom orders are for the same things. This is all fine. BUT, you cannot turn around in the same breath and complain that things are stale and monotonous. That’s hypocritical. And some viewers who point out that some producers don’t make what they like– that’s not repetition, it’s simply a product you don’t want to see– and the best part about it is– you get to save your money when there’s a video out that doesn’t suit your tastes! 😉

    0
  48. decendingskulls says:

    @ Leviathan I am in 100% agreement with you about fans promoting videos they like. I do that all the time. I also hire producers to make me customs from time to time, and I’ve learned about myself that when I do, I get as involved as they will let me. I tend to order customs that are fairly specific, but even so I want to see the movie succeed financially, to see what I can do to help to that end, and if there’s a market for it I will find it. I have some post-production skills (amateur but strong enough to be of service depending on the studio) and time and passion to invest in the project to make it as good as it can be, and once it’s released, I am eager to be on the front lines promoting it, in some cases finding avenues of promotion the producer was not aware of. For me, making superheroine movies seems like a dream job (outside looking in to be sure), but so it’s fun for me to get involved even in a minor way. I want to buy the movies that feature what I like, and I want to promote them, and the customs I commission, because I know that may be the only hope I have of seeing more like that in the future, and I want this to continue. It’s common sense really. Wishing for something doesn’t make it happen. You’ve got to have some skin in the game, as they say.

    0
  49. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ Gil: welcome to the discussion. Yes, true about Poe who also invented the armchair detective genre just like that, sorry Sherlock Holmes fans out there 🙂 An interesting bit: all this dark stuff about his persona, hanging out at graveyards at night and so forth, thinking dark thoughts, was made up by his publishers after his death to sell his works even better.

    And yes, very true about that line from Watchmen. While Moore is sometimes a bit on the nose (the line: “a fat man stepped on Osterman’s watch” next to a panel with a picture of the atomic bomb) Watchmen is and always will be the comic series that has most influenced me on so many levels even in the way I do business.

    A funny thing: when Kieron Gillen was promoting his Young Avengers series, he or some clever guy at Marvel wrote: “When a character in our series says “I DID it thirty minutes ago, he means he did IT thirty minutes ago.” I dig such humor a lot 🙂

    And about talent: I have this from the Castle of Horror podcast: when Hitchcock made Psycho it was his attempt at doing what William Castle does, except he couldn’t help it but make a true classic “on the cheap”. Food for thought, once again.

    0
  50. bogie says:

    @ Gil. Thanks for the insights mate. I love this board. It’s a font of knowledge, and not just about the heroine fetish! I haven’t read heaps of Poe, I only have a collection of his short stories, but ‘Masque’ by any standard has to be considered literature, and The Raven is indeed poetry at it’s most expressive.
    I think this is called ‘off topic’, but so be it.

    0
  51. Gil says:

    @Bogie & Horse
    There’s an interesting analogy with Poe, if I may, in the discussion you guys have been having on the thread. Poe HATED having to write horror fiction…he wanted to be taken seriously as a poet (and he wrote some fantastic poems), but horror stories paid the bills. Of course, his method of ‘paying the bills’ produced some of the most intense horror fiction ever written. The first paragraph of ‘Masque’ or ‘Fall of the House of Usher’ make it almost embarrassing to mention ’50 Shades of Gray’ in the same sentence…People with vision will always stand out…whether they are expressing their ‘art’ to pay the rent or not, I think.
    @Horse – a funny story regarding the ‘Watchmen’ film. In Moore’s text, when Silk Specter/Laurie has sex with The Owl , there, she says , when it’s over…”Did the costumes make it better?” I noticed they dropped that line from the film… Probably worried it would send the fanboys and girls running to the exits!

    0
  52. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ bogie: now I won’t either… not anymore 🙂

    0
  53. bogie says:

    @ Horse. Mate, I could NEVER forget that plunging neckline!

    0
  54. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ bogie: ah, I knew you would dig Hazel Court and Raquel Welch. And “Masque” is indeed very stylish, that I did remember from my early teens, and the hooded characters in various colors.

    Must have been too young when I first saw it to remember Hazel Court’s dress and her plunging neckline though 🙂

    0
  55. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ leviathan: thanks again for taking time out (from eating amongst other things) to indulge me.

    I fully understand what you are saying and that you want to repeat what has been successful. Makes total sense. Also for you to point out the risks that come with trying something untested. I can fully understand and agree.

    What is the answer, I honestly wonder. It might be that somebody will try something that does catch on and that will be a “thing” for a while, as it always is with trends.

    0
  56. bogie says:

    @Horse. I have vivid memories of Masque (..”and Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all.” Creepy), definitely the most stylish of the Poe adaptations. Hazel Court…now THAT was a woman. And don’t get me started on Raquel Welch.

    0
  57. I’m starting to get hungry now……

    your point about being ahead of the curve is dead on.
    but unfortunately for that to workout one would have to be able to read trends and superhoeines doesn’t seem to have trends.

    for example our main niche is Sleepy.
    after years of making sleepy films I have learned to notice trends. PG-13 plays out for awhile and then Explicit takes over. then after a cycle of Explicit PG-13 come back around. knowing when to see the trend changing makes it easy to know when to put out a new movie.

    With super heroine I haven’t been able to witness any trends.
    That could be because I haven’t learned what to look for yet, but so far it seems to me that I can’t see the change because they haven’t changed yet.

    the only recourse would be to take chances every once in awhile and see if there is any traction. Unfortunately that could be very expensive.
    And if the customers don’t help the success of the project they like they can expect the project to fail and never be replicated.

    On another super heroine forum board I tried getting a role-play custom movie going. It was meant to take the temperature of the community as to what is currently working more than other things. Maybe even see if there is anything that isn’t being represented yet.
    so far after a few days i haven’t even had an answer as if anyone would be interested.

    I can only speak for myself.
    I will continue shooting what is selling and what is getting positive responses to and continue doing that until it changes.
    is it repetitive?
    hell yeah!

    Is there a reason why it is?
    Hell yeah!

    Are both producers and customers equally to blame?
    Hell yeah!

    0
  58. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ leviathan: it did. But smart money is always a little ahead of the curve. I know that is easy for me to say and very hard to do, but I did choose the McDonald’s example for a reason. There is no contraction in the overall fast food market, the opposite is true with falling gas prices, etc.

    So it is not the market that is falling down, but the competitors who had been “forced” to be more creative have grown stronger. So at least in the fast food market people are reacting positively to change when they like it or they don’t as with the new offerings from Pizza Hut, who are in a similar situation as McD. There are countless of examples of retail of brands that were very strong once and saw no need for change or to stay inventive and who now have lost a lot of customers due to newer brands popping up that are more in tune with current tastes or buying habits. As I said before: maybe there is middle ground: keep giving customers what they already know and like while introducing ever so slightly new stuff.

    0
  59. @HorseWithNoName
    re: “People will eventually get tired of Big Macs”

    you speak truth.

    I hope that my point that when that moment comes producers will stop making BigMacs because they will be following the money has come across as well.

    0
  60. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ leviathan: cool handle first of all. Secondly, thanks for your post. I fully understand where you are coming from. I feel I should have made it more clearer in my most recent post (as I hope I have done so in my other posts) that do think (some) producers very much would like to bring new elements into this genre.

    And there are some. And whenever I see them (in those movies I get) I will voice my opinion strongly about them as I have strongly recommended certain movies with stating why. Other movies not so 🙂

    So to my bretheren I say this: it is perfectly fine with wanting what you want. I would have loved more movies with Coco, so we are in the same boat of wanting more of something or someone we really like.

    But, ponder this if you may: in the documentary “Super Size Me”, Morgan Spurlock talks to a gentleman who eats 3 Big Macs a day. That has been his whole diet for years. He loves them Big Macs and does not want something else. For years! Ok, perfectly fine. On the other end of the spectrum we have Ernest Hemingway who, as a young man, went to the same Chinese restaurant every night for months, every night trying a different meal, until he had had all the meals offered on the menu. Did he like all of them? Nope. But what an experience!

    I am not either one of those two, nor am I saying that anyone is, but trying something new might surprise you a lot. And coming back to the producer side of things: giving people always what the already have and more of it cannot go on forever. People will eventually get tired of Big Macs as at the moment, McDonald’s has been losing a lot of ground to its competition. They have most recently fired their CEO. Food for thought. Pun intended and peace out.

    0
  61. I will post my opinion on the matter with the understanding that i am speaking for ourselves only. I cannot speak for other producers nor do i attempt to.
    I speak from a company producing fetish films for almost 20 years, but again I am not attempting to speak for an entire industry.

    ready?
    here it is.
    In a nutshell.

    Money Speaks Volumes.

    We have tried new things constantly. Trying to offer something different than other producers to distinguish ourselves from the other producers out there we have tried countless of new thing. Very few things stick.
    most fall by the wayside and never tried again.

    for every person who wants something new, there are dozens of people who don’t want to change anything.
    Money Talks.

    I can’t tell you how many times I thought a change would be awesome, attempted to produce something different, announced it perfectly for what it was….and got either zero sales, or none.

    lessons learned? we are not doing that again until someone pays for a custom.

    if you really want something different wait until a producer does something different that you like and after purchasing it yourself advertise that fucker like you have a stake in the companies survival. because the more word of mouth there is the more chance there is to have it repeated.
    you are doing no-one a service by buying a film, enjoying it, and staying silent.

    If you email a producer and say
    “this is a very little used option and I think if you do it the sales would be amazing” and the producer is actually willing to do it, you should actually push that movie harder than the producer himself does. because what will happen is that if it fails that producer will never touch it again and will be bitter towards the subject matter completely.

    I can’t tell you how many people have emailed me and told me.
    “this has never been done and if you do it there many dozens who will buy it”
    and then….onkly one sale. the guy who suggested it.

    what does that say? that there is no interest in it past the guy who wanted it but didn’t want to pay for a custom. by doing this you are effectively poisoning the mind of the producer towards change. but that shouldn’t matter because you got a custom for the cost of a regular movie.
    goodie for you.

    we on the other hand feel screwed and taken advantage of and we take comfort
    in the old adage
    “what sells, stays”
    we then just keep making what sells until it stops selling.

    Remember folks….90% of the producers who are making this want to make a profit. the other 10% are making their own kink and if you buy it then its gravy.

    sales are the bottom line. its unsavory but its the truth. producers aren’t going to spend $1500 to make $300. if it seems like its repedative its because its what sells.
    wanting something different is fine, expecting it every week after it has failed is bordering on insanity.

    Thats it. thats my 2cents.
    flame away.

    0
  62. Sidekick says:

    First, thank you all for jumping in on the topic. I didn’t think this particular thread was going to resonate as well as it has.

    @ Judah

    No. The discussion that was going on recently had nothing to do with this. I actually started writing it back in early December. Maybe even late November. Life stuff just kept on interfering and slowed me down.

    0
  63. Judah says:

    OMG…
    @Sidekick
    I hope that aggressive discussion thread I started wasn’t the cause of this thread. Because it wasn’t my fault. It was CTLE’s fault, there the ones I took issue with because they are intent on releasing the same HK week after week and other nonsense like 00Angels. I just merely spoke up about it. If this thread is the cause of that then I guess I got my point across. As for Repetitiveness, I find that some Production companies offer more of a variety than others. I hate comparing production companies because they all differ in some other way or another. To sit here and evaluate each one and whether or not they have become repetitive would take a very very long time. I use to buy from CTLE because at one point they offered variety but now I think they have fallen to new lows…one reason I believe is Repetitiveness. Mind you even though they ban me from posting on there sight I still think they release some good stuff from time to time…just not like before. When they release stuff I give my honest opinion. Likewise, SHG media releases good stuff, yet they release so little and not as much as CTLE but I find there stuff non-repetitive. When it comes to Adult DH and Anastasia Pierce have blown it out of the ball park. Non of there stuff is repetitive yet they release so little. I’m still scratching my head as to figure how CTLE is one of the low production companies but DH is probably one of the top but there run by the same person. Lately DH has released so much variety in both locations and costumes. Still I Repetitiveness has been the downfall of many tv shows. Stephen J. Cannel said in an interview if a tv show lasts 5 years its a success. To me if a tv show lasts 5 years with repetitive storylines its a failure…How old is CTLE and SHG Media again.

    0
  64. decendingskulls says:

    @Logan who responded to me way up several comments ago regarding issues with the talent pool and frequently requested models:

    I had a feeling you would respond that way and my submission was probably not realistic. Most producers use a limited number of actors and produce a limited number of productions compared to you, and there is probably a good reason for that. That is to say, among other things, good talent is probably hard to find, so when one makes a good connection, they want to keep it going because they know how rare it is. And that’s ok.

    Maybe a more realistic idea would be to have an actress play different characters. Hey, that’s what actors are known for after all! I think most people would probably agree that they would rather see the same actress who has proven herself to be good, act out different parts over time, as opposed to creating a tireless search for new talent that runs the well frustratingly dry for (you) the producer.

    0
  65. HorseWithNoName says:

    @Alex Bettinger: many thanks for providing a different opinion / experience about working with adult talent. Always good to hear different voices.

    @bogie: do yourself a favor and watch “The Masque of the Red Death”. It is on YouTube, but unfornately not in a great quality. Hazel Court is almost falling out of her dress. However, after watching this one now again a couple of times (I even bought it) “Never Say Never” looks less intersting to me. But I am strange like that 🙂 And Jane Asher is easy on the eyes as well.

    @Dr Yuya: I would argue that for most (I could be wrong) this particular sub-genre is less about sex and more about the fetish. I am personally less interested in watching a movie with naked people getting it on, but rather see these actors in some kind of fetish outfit.

    And the sameness in my opinion is simply due to the fact that some producers will look at what peril movies have come before and not look at what has come before in more than a century of modern (adult and not so adult) entertainment.

    There has been some mention of a Vampirella movie. Would I be interested in it? Most likely not. A producer will make a Vampirella movie that will look like any other peril movie. They will not bother to even look at the old Warren magazines from the 1970s to “understand” what made this character so popular. Funny thing: one of the founders of Image Comics stated in an interview that for him, these old Vampirella magazins were “his porn” as a young boy. This is one of the reasons why I buy Image books: these guys understand where they (and “it”) come from. They recreate the stuff that influenced them at an early age and do not look at what they can copy that is selling right now. They are strong, because they take chances.

    For me personally the way I perceive most peril movies right now is very easy on my wallet. There is really not much in the current slate that interests me that much, not if I can go and buy “The Fantastic Voyage” instead, which is practically a superhero movie (think Fantastic Four) and does feature a very young Raquel Welch in a skin tight catsuit. Go figure.

    @Azuma Ninja: we must not have been watching the same Giga movies. I recently went back and watched some of their older stuff I got a while ago. To me there is nothing boring about their very hardcore sex scenes nor did I hear any chipmunks squeak 🙂 How anybody can say that their stuff is not on the same level as most American productions is beyond me. But it all depends on what one finds interesting, I guess.

    In general (in my opinion) this genre is stale when we compare one peril movie to the next and measure their quality based on the number of low blows. If that is your thing, that is perfectly alright, but if producers (and fans) were looking a little bit more outside and compare the latest peril movie not against the one that came before, but compare it with movies in general and the material that has inspired this genre in the first place (hence my Vampirella example) we will be getting so much better stuff. Heck, even the movie posters for “Revenge of the Creature” from the 1950s are so much more evocative than the stuff we get today.

    I would like to turn Alex Bettinger’s statement of how good we “young whippersnappers” have it today on its head. Back in the day I was looking forward to the next 3 minute installment of whatever DanO serial was just being offered on Superheroinecentral. Looking back at some of his old stuff today, I am always amazed how well it holds up compared to newer movies. Go watch “Thrust Girl Crushed” (it is available as “one” movie now) and afterwards you might find it hard to name 5 current movies that come close.

    Not saying that all the “old stuff” is great and always better, for that I listen to too many current bands or read too many current comic books, but looking with a wide scope at what has come before can’t do that much harm. I do appreciate a band like “The Twilight Sad” much more because I grew up listening to “Joy Division”. And why are “The Twilight Sad” great? Because they deconstruct the stuff Ian Curtis was doing in the post punk area, while bands like “She Wants Revenge” just copy the dark wave stuff bit by bit. You will appreciate Roman Coppola’s “CQ” much more if you know Mario Bava’s “Danger: Diabolik”. If producers were to go back to where it all started, “Warren’s Vampirella” as a young man’s porn, and deconstruct just that, or have a look at why waiting for a 3 minate segment from DanO was always great, I would be one very happy camper. But again, just my 2 cents 🙂

    0
  66. Decendingskulls says:

    @Dr Yuya that’s kind of what I was saying as well.

    0
  67. Dr Yuya says:

    Sameness really shouldn’t matter…I’ve never understood producers in fetish industries trying to innovate or do something new…it’s sex…universal and evolution based…it doesn’t need to change a whole hell of a lot to stay interesting IMO.

    0
  68. My feeling is that if you are seeing your particular personal fetishes in video after video, you never mind or even notice the repetition. It only becomes an issue if you’re not really seeing your personal fetish. So if a bunch of videos in a row feature a lot of stomach punching, but that’s not anything you’re into, then you might start to feel annoyed at the “repetition.” But lets face it–repetition is really the essence of the animal here. People tune in over and over because they want to see more of their personal fetishistic interests.

    For example, I personally have NO interest in the so-called “PG” or “PG-13” versions of fetish videos. That stuff is always either too tame or else too over-the-top violent and brutal for me (just vicious beatdowns with screaming crying heroines, etc). But that’s just me–and so as a customer, I find that particular wave of videos being offered now rather repetitive-looking and boring. But of course, if I was really into that kind of thing, I wouldn’t mind it at all. Repetitive for me, awesome for someone else. No big whoop.

    Sure, it’s nice to have variety in storylines and costumes and sets and such–but lets be real, there’s actually quite an astonishing variety out there now. I mean, just think back a few years. There was very LITTLE to choose from just 5 years ago. Now there are tons of different producers, and most of them are doing their own things. Different sets, different costumes, different actresses. I loved Alex David’s second Ms. Pacman vid. Definitely something different! Rye’s been doing some amazing stuff, looks new and fresh to me. So the variety seems pretty good as far as I can tell.

    And just to counterbalance some negative remarks that were made about actresses on the “adult” side of things, allow me to just say that I have worked with TONS of amazing, enthusiastic, fun, gung-ho, energetic, fetish and adult models. In fact, I can honestly say I have NEVER hired an actress who just showed up and wanted her money and wanted to do as little as possible for it. Virtually everyone I have ever hired has been awesome–eager to do well in fight scenes, excited about the sexual and fetish content, etc. These have all been performers who care a lot about the product. I’ve worked with bombshells, very famous adult actresses, and niche performers with small but loyal followings, and every one of them has been terrific and eager to go a great job. Truly–just about every actress I’ve hired in almost 10 years of working in this business has been like that. Somehow I don’t think that’s just a matter of luck, but who knows.

    For example, in my last heroine vid, Beaten by the Billionaire, I hired two well-known and very popular and award-winning adult actresses (Misty Stone, Lexi Belle), neither of whom had done anything like this before. They showed up on time (okay, MIsty was late, ha ha), and were full of energy, pulled off an awesome fight scene, some hot fetish sexual stuff, and had great positive attitudes the whole time. We plowed through it and got everything we needed with some time to spare. Just a great, positive shooting experience. But then, that’s the typical experience I’ve had in this business, for almost ten years. So when I hear someone repeatedly complain about the actresses on the adult side of things, it just makes me shrug.

    I also shrug when people complain about not enough variety–when I look around, I see a whole LOT of it.

    Maybe I’m just an old man trying to remind you young whippersnappers of just how good you got it!!

    0
  69. Azuma Ninja says:

    Lol, Bogie Kacey looks phenomenal as Wonder Girl as did Coco. Would love to see a Wonder Girl Mirror Match battle between those two bronze-skinned apple bottomed beauties. I heard that Coco is no longer doing films so maybe Kacey Preston can be the new Redwing.

    0
  70. Azuma Ninja says:

    Japanese heroine peril films are super repetitive. Long boring sequences of some helpless tiny actress strung up like a piñata & punched repeatedly followed by a boring sex scene filled with chipmunk squeaks.

    Heroine Legends, The Battle For Earth, NGC, Rye UK, Darkside by Primal & Anastasia Pierce’s productions all seem to offer different flavors of what we all like. Way better than Giga & Zen.

    As Logan said, it takes money & time to make these. Just think, these directors & producers started out as fans of this genre back when heroine peril wasn’t as popular. These guys had to push forward to start their first productions while maintaining their daily lives. What I’m saying is…we’re all fans, the creators were fans…everyone has unique visions of what they want to see…put your visions into a script, budget & make a film yourselves. I’m saying this in the most positive & encouraging way. It takes great effort to produce such content & different perspectives are always welcome & enjoyable to see no matter the budget.

    Anyone bored by the current crop of films should blow us all away with their own unique vision. I mean…that’s why we have all these peril productions around today. Some dreamers took chances & sacrifices & now their work is available as purchasable downloads. This genre is for the fans, by the fans. How many people in this comment section would like to make a film? It’s totally possible & any deviation from the standard is totally welcome. I always see awesome ideas in these threads. 2014 was a blast for this genre; I expect to see more awesome content in 2015.

    0
  71. Bogie says:

    Correction…the boobs don’t even have to be bare, just big with lots of cleavage showing. Refer Kacey in the upcoming Never Say Never. Now that I’ve got that off my chest….

    0
  72. LoveThemHeroines says:

    I think that is the problem with regular movies in general. Trying to appeal to various demographics while still keeping it fresh. It becomes a challenge for the director to still bring what the fans want, but in a different light.

    Look at Batman. Tim burton’s did well. Superhero movies were on the rise. A majority of the other DC shows flopped or didn’t do well with the same formula. Chris Nolan came along and gave fans another take on it all and flipped it. Spider man tried to do the same and it didn’t do to well. Although I still liked it.

    Speaking of Batman, Batgirl (old school tv series) is highly repetitive with variation on the traps she was in. People still go back for those and to this day, there’s a lot of fan fiction and artwork paying homage to that.

    0
  73. Some Kind of Ninja says:

    Also, about the 50 Shades thing: I’m rather flabbergasted that that’s popular at all, considering how unsafe that work’s idea of BDSM turns out to be, and how much it’s poisoning people’s perceptions of it.

    0
  74. Some Kind of Ninja says:

    As I earlier implied, I’m more of a bare belly guy than a bare boobs or feet guy, so I end up getting videos that feature quite a bit of belly-related torture and eroticism. Unfortunately, such videos are fairly rare (the latter kind especially), and the ones that are left don’t always interest me because they’re often *only* limited to punching and kicking.

    0
  75. bogie says:

    @ Joe. Welcome. Nice guys on here ( never seen a comment from the fairer sex, accept from some of the cool actresses/producers) who can string more than a few words together and produce interesting reading. I second the motion for a Red Sonja type. I find I lean more towards heroines than SUPERheroines. I expect that’s because you don’t have to be too elaborate regarding how they can be beaten. A couple of brutal barbarians would suffice in this case.
    Also…I’ll take bare boobs over bare feet any day, but that’s just me.

    0
  76. Joe says:

    Been reading this site a while, though never commented before, but I have to say, I would second the comments above about a Red Sonja type if you want to break up the fight scene monotony.

    Although…I imagine most talent wouldn’t like the idea of having to wear the chain bikini. Maybe use an Asgardian instead from Marvel, like Valkyrie, or Sif? Or hell…THOR is female now.

    But throwing in a sword fight or even a spear fight to change things up might be fun? Different character base AND different fight scene type with a weapon like a spear/sword or hammer. Or too much work?

    0
  77. Logan says:

    @Decendingskulls: Here’s the biggest thing as a producer: certain actresses are CONSTANTLY requested. Some are easier to work with than others. Some are better at playing the part. So then tends to lead a producer to use and re-use the same girls as much as possible. We have had probably 50-60 different female actresses (I think I’m actually underestimating here) and there are probably about 7-8 that really sell well on all levels… There are some female producer/actresses who are selling themselves as well so you know you will always get the same girl every time…

    0
  78. Decendingskulls says:

    Seeing as how this is not exactly high-concept stuff, I think you can create the right kind of diversity without driving yourself crazy.

    My approach would be fairly simple: Create new superheroines, each one is played by a different actress, with her own unique costume, and here’s the kicker: unique superpowers. Then you get to have the fun (as a writer) of figuring out how the bad guy(s) defeat each heroine’s powers, incorporate some popular fetishes, and voila, you have entertainment.

    0
  79. Logan says:

    @Franklin: I hear what you’re saying but the sales show that foot fetish is the biggest seller. Boobs sell, sure, but topless scenes don’t attract as many customers. All Adult scenes show boobs. We are always asked for more than that. It doesn’t sell on its own.

    0
  80. Franklin says:

    @Logan

    I disagree with you on the foot fetish comment. I know a male performer/producer/director and he has told me that big tits sale. There isn’t a justified reason for the lack of big tits fetish videos in heroine porn. I understand everyone wants to enjoy scenes. Producers should consider cutting a bit down on the foot fetish because it is overdone and they’re turning away customers.

    0
  81. HorseWithNoName says:

    There are so many foot fetish films in the superheroine genre? Really?

    @bogie, @Logan: according to the author herself, she had started 50 shades as fan fiction about the characters from the Twilight books / movies. Since Bella and Edward are basically sexless, she wanted to play out the sexual side of things. And this is what it is for girls: a nice clean way to play out sexual fantasies, actually not unlike what we as peril fans want i.e. to see the sexual side of popular characters played out.

    I think what makes people uncomfortable, men and women alike, who do not share our particular fetish is the “superhero” side of things. 50 shades is ok, but 50 shades with a bunch of characters in colorful costumes makes people feel awkward. I watched Watchmen twice at the movies, and every time the “in costume” sex scene made most of the audience highly uncomfortable. So, yes, softcore BDSM between pretty people is very acceptable in a major movie to a mainstream audience, superheroine porn is not. I think a lot of people would already find it odd that people with our love for this stuff rather want to see Yvonne Craig tied up in her Batgirl outfit than let’s say a business outfit.

    0
  82. Some Kind of Ninja says:

    I can sort of see the argument that it’s kinda repetitive. I mean, there’s a whole untapped market dedicated to belly-based torture/love that goes beyond punching and kicking in these sorts of films. Yet there’s very few being made, and all that’s there (as mentioned above) is the foot fetish thing.

    0
  83. Logan says:

    @deathrider: devil’s advocate: if we all go back to the basics, isn’t that repetitive in itself? And isn’t that what the complaint is? Because the basics are what every video is based on. 😉

    0
  84. Logan says:

    @bogie: 50 Shades is the pinnacle of hypocrisy. Porn is okay to read but not watch. According to evey girl I’ve had this discussion with. THEN they make a movie out of it and now it’s okay to watch but still not okay for guys to watch porn. I loathe feminists. 🙂

    0
  85. deathrider says:

    Repetitiveness is an issue. Bc why should I then dl this video when I can watch an older video that is exactly the same.

    I think with the fight scenes we don’t need a martial arts scene. We can however make the heroine look tougher with some camera tricks to make her punches, kicks look more deadly.
    Also some story telling, character development. She wins the 1st fight then villains come together & work out a plan to capture her.
    When shes captured, no sexual shit like rape shit. That is fucked up. Just beat downs. Villains play with her, make fun of her, she spits in their face etc.
    Different captured scenes. Have chained to chair, hands behind her. A gag. Back to basics.

    0
  86. bogie says:

    @ Gil. Yes, as an aside….50 Shades has me puzzled, as apparently the majority of the audience is female. Surely so many of the little darlings are not into BDSM? Actually, I suspect the appeal is the ever-popular ( to women) concept of the pure innocent girl redeeming the big, bad, handsome guy by means of true love.
    And…foot fetish. Who knew?

    0
  87. Logan says:

    @Gil: what it has come down to for me when hiring these girls is that they don’t care about the fetish. They’re there to make their quick dollar. This is speaking from my own experience and on the adult side. My PG girls love doing these films and want the viewers to love what they’ve done. For the most part, aside from one main actress I have on the adult side, they all just want to show up and be done in under 4 hours. Most don’t even care what they look like on camera other than being pretty– which negates the situations we put them in for peril. It’s sad and it’s frustrating. I would love to find 5-6 beautiful girls regardless of their rate, who just love to make these films and will put their all into making them something amazing– but until that day, we as a production house make diamonds out of coal rather than find diamonds in the coal. I’m not intentionally sounding degrading to the talent I’ve come across, but reality is what it is. I even had one actress, at her normal rate, tell me no one could touch her. So she just wanted to show up, make $1,500 at sit there and say a few lines. Sh didn’t want to even do fight choreography. Needless to say we nix’d that one– and she was a pretty big name. Another one couldn’t make it to set. I would think for $1,500 or more you could Uber it. Sorry, now my frustrations with talent are coming out because my end goal has always been about the excitement of releasing a video and hearing “that was awesome!” – it’s nice when the actresses care.

    0
  88. Gil says:

    First, thank you ,Logan for posting a really articulate description of the thought process that goes into the conception, execution and marketing of these films from the Producers’ side of the coin. I guess I am with Horse (and you, it seems) in that I miss the more elaborate plots and ideas of the early Heroine Legends universe. Your work is always of quality, and apparently going for nonstop kinetic action hits the spot with many more guys out there than deeper characterizations, plot lines, etc.. I think Alan over at Battle For Earth seems to have come to the same conclusion,,,in that an interconnected series of episodes is simply too elaborate and costly for the present market to support. Personally, I miss Creighton Spawn..thought he was the best villain in the genre…but, que sera sera, as someone said!
    One thing that occurred to me in the midst of reading this thread is that the business model has changed markedly in the fifteen or so years of these Heroine in Peril vignettes. Stand alone movies have largely replaced pay sites as the delivery platform, and sometimes I think this leads to sameness and a lack of risk taking. After all, the model has to be brought in (and often , as you mentioned, at least given a primer on basic fight moves, etc.), run through dialog, run through choreography…all on the clock. The film then has to be edited, music added, sound synched, credits applied, if desired….is it any wonder that what I see more and more is a desire to get the thing up and start accepting orders for it? And these films, generally, have to be shot in a day or maybe two , at most. The model/actress , who is always going to be the main selling point, starts getting very expensive after that…I suppose the day that Warren Buffet discovers his inner Superheroine Fetish, this may change, but until then…

    Personally, not sure if this is entirely a healthy development. I wonder how many opportunities there are to ‘grow the market’ , since ,to many folks, watching a steady diet of these films would seem mind bogglingly repetitive and boring..(if not downright offensive with a lot of shown or implied non consensual sexual subjugation). These are not exactly films for ;date night’. But remember…the most eagerly anticipated R-rated mainstream movie so far this year (’50 Shades of Gray’) features a steady diet of fetishes…from spanking to restraints. A point to ponder….

    0
  89. Logan says:

    @Franklin: foot fetish is the largest fetish– more audience means more buys. As for male villains va females, females cost 4-5 times as much as males. It’s economics at that point.

    0
  90. Franklin says:

    The repetitiveness makes it hard for me to find a movie that interests me. Why is there so much foot fetish in heroine genre? I love seeing superheroines in sexy boots, but they are almost always taking them off to show their feet and/or to perform foot worship. I’m a breast man and I see very little to none breast worship in many superheroine scenes.

    Primal’s hypo themed scenes have gotten old. How many scenes do we really need of Luther hypothesizing a superheroine as his sex puppet?

    I wish there were more scenes with a female villainous dominating a superhero.

    0
  91. Logan says:

    @Brendan: that’s simply because these films cost thousands of dollars to make each. If we don’t add what we know sells, then we will lose money. If we do only what we like (I’m more about the theatrical aspect), we will still lose out on sales because we’re no longer creating videos for an audience. I don’t need to buy my own movies. I made them so I have them already 😉

    0
  92. Brendan says:

    There are a lot of movies out there which are very much the same and its not just the storyline/peril, its also the actress’s in the movies. It does get a bit boring if all you get is punching of the heroine, or the same actress in every single movie.
    A producer has to think of sales though so if that is what makes them the money so be it. I just buy the movies i want to see.
    As sidekick has said the comments on videos are “pantyhose?” “carries” all people want to see is there favourite fetish and in order to get the sales the producer has to put them into the video.
    Id like to see a producer who makes the video for themselves and puts in what they want to see that way we might see some very different videos come out.
    Ive thought about customs and getting someone to produce a movie for me, it would be a lot different then most out as im not that into pantyhose or carries, but a lot of producers won’t act out your complete script, they add their own touches and elements, so im a bit reluctant todo that yet

    0
  93. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ bogie: as always thanks and you are welcome. If your time allows you to do so, pick up a copy of Sean Howe’s book “Marvel Comics The Untold Story”. It is a very interesting in-depth examination of Marvel’s history up the 2000s from both the business and the creative side of things. Yes, he also discusses skirt length and the lack of panties for superheroines. Shock 🙂

    @ Logan: sleep is overrated anyway 🙂

    0
  94. bogie says:

    @Logan. It exhausts me just thinking about it!
    @SThanatos. You forgot Shanna/Sheena.

    0
  95. Logan says:

    @bogie: it’s all about notifications and being able to do it from my phone lol and right now, I’m training for a role in a film as well as writing and organizing a feature film for later this month (unrelated to superheroines)… I don’t sleep much is the short answer 😉

    0
  96. bogie says:

    I think repetitiveness is impossible to avoid in this very niche genre which for the most part is limited, in the first place, by time…generally 30 minutes or so….and in the second by the basic premise. For most affectionados, this is fighting/peril where the heroine is defeated. However, I’ve found that it’s the little things that ring my bell. Things like a certain bit of dialogue or perhaps the dragging of of the unconscious heroine by two guys by her ankles (Haven’t seen that in a long time, any producers please feel free to adopt). In other words, I think the BASICS must of necessity remain the same, but within that framework, there could me myriad different elements that could be injected that would make someone say, “Gee, I haven’t seem that before!” When you come to think of it, it is not repetitiveness of situation that is the real problem, it’s the repetitiveness of the uninspired performance of it. A heroine takes a hit or delivers one in every video, as it must be. HOW she takes or delivers it is what will make the production worthwhile for me.
    I always think a variation of the 80/20 rule applies here….80% of one’s enjoyment will be found in 20% of the releases, and thank God for that..I’m on a limited budget these days and the Aussie dollar just went down to 76 US cents! The trick is to pick the right 20%.
    @Horse. Thanks for the latest lesson in superheroana. Your writing and those of Grant Morrison are making me an expert!
    @Logan. Where do you find the time to respond so succinctly to these threads (I’m so glad you do), and at the same time make all those videos?!

    0
  97. Thanatos says:

    My biggest problem is the repetition of characters. WW and Supergirl for days. Nothing wrong with them, but I want more variety.

    How about Shadowcat? Wasp? Spider-girl? Phoenix? Storm? Rogue? Soranik Natu? Red Sonja? x-23? Maria Hill? Invisible Woman? Raven? Etc etc etc. We get trickles or nothing of so many characters.

    0
  98. dkm says:

    Up until recently I would have said, “Yes I want more variety in these films”, but then you hear about one of the models having her neck broken (regardless of the circumstances) and I think I’ve sort of accepted that we get what we get based on the capabilities of the people producing and making this stuff.

    So if keeping the performers safe means repetition, I’m totally ok with that.

    (P.S. Can we get a post up on this site with that model’s gofundme page? I feel like it needs more attention then it’s getting.)

    As far as the sameness of the movies themselves, a lot of the producers seem hellbent on the PG, PG-13 thing. It makes sense, more performers are willing to do it, there’s a higher profit margin, some of the producers have partners who wouldn’t want to work with them if they made “R” content or stuff like Akiba used to (I was a big Zeus fan. Not so much the gross scat stuff, but the variety of ways they took out the superheroine in each movie.)

    All that said, I don’t personally like the PG-13 push. I think it’s leading to a lot of mediocrity and sameness (the point of this blog post), and there doesn’t seem to be any effort or inclination to change it up at all because it’s profitable … for now.

    I think there’s an easy fix though and that’s to keep better track of the peril elements used in each film and then making a note to not do those things in the next one, or to do a different take on them. I also wouldn’t ask the fans either. I’d just make the film. Because if you ask us we’re just going to give you a million different answers and that’s another way to produce mediocrity: Cater to everyone.

    It’s like the WWE right now. They want to be a product EVERYONE can enjoy, but if you know anything about business and marketing, you know trying to appeal to everyone is a losing proposition (and you can see that in their ratings, which have been in a steady downward spiral since they decided John Cena was going to be the new Hulk Hogan.)

    So, mix the content up and don’t listen to us too much unless it’s something you should address (like really long opening and closing credit scenes or the price, because lately some of that’s getting out of control).

    And even though Akiba / Zen whatever the company is called sucks now, I think the producers should use them as a guide. They went really hard into the PG-13ish stuff and now no one really pays attention to them. But back when they were great, they had a lot of variety and different heroines and peril they faced.

    It sounds like an easy fix, and it seriously is.

    0
  99. Logan says:

    @HorseWithNoName: I much preferred the old way. But the old way didn’t sell. The new way does. So we have to do the new way– small stories, less substance, more peril. But I get it, these videos are purchased for one reason for many viewers… 😉

    @Dangerman: Just to play devil’s advocate: You expect a producer to lose $3-$5,000+ just to offer a free video? Producers aren’t made of money either. 😉 And the transformations / scenarios you listed go back to the whole budget thing– a bank? Even a room that looks like a bank? Even to build it for one film… where would the money come from to make that happen? Especially since the next line was to offer it for free…

    0
  100. Dangerman says:

    Oh and one more thing…
    Make the heroines win not lose all the time. >:(

    0
  101. Dangerman says:

    How about a few things…
    1. Leotard-wearing (either with bare leg pantyhose of bare legs), but skirts or overalls, do spin-transformations and “super-spin” powers (drilling, tornadoes, time travel)
    2. Let the heroines do superhero stuff (preventing disasters, stop bank robberies) instead of placing them in peril every single time.
    3. No pornography, I like at least PG-rated to PG-13-rated stuff for a change.
    4. Make some of these videos free, our audience isn’t made of money you know.

    0
  102. Jozobo says:

    Very good points in this topic. It’s not easy making these films so I congratulate the directors & producers. Keep Wondy but switch it up now & then with other heroines. Ex)

    Oiled Busty Blonde Jungle Amazon vs Mind-Controlled Gorilla (guy in suit). A Sheena-type Jungle babe hasn’t been done yet.

    Barbarian Red Sonia fighting a hooded cult of sex fiends. Thulsa-Doom or Thongs O’Doom, lol. I can see Stella as the gothic cult leader & Antoinette Soto as Sonia.

    Big-bottom Cow-Girl (with hat/daisy-dukes/whip bad southern accent) vs Alien ( Guy with Mask) Parody of Cowboys vs Aliens.

    Planet of the Apes: Gorilla General (mask) vs Female Astronaut & Silent Cave Babe (forgot her name from old movie)

    I have a She-Hulk idea. There’s this sexy Mexican female fantasy wrestler named Antionette Soto. She works on the Website Fem Wrestling Rooms & Mixed Wrestling Fantasies. She oozes sex appeal for a woman so muscular yet feminine & her ass reminds me of Coco’s. I wondered if Coco could play Brenda Banner whose rage transforms her into She-Hulk (Antionette Soto). The bad guys can work over She-Hulk causing her to transform back into Puny Brenda Banner for more punishment….double peril action.

    If Coco is truly retired you could get Kelly Preston as she has a similar body type (big hips & ass). Spray-tanning Antoinette Green would be a challenge though. She’s not really known for peril but she did film 2 wrestling bouts where she was dominated by a man. She seems like a fun laid back sexy giantess. Would love for any of you producers to book her for a production.

    Pics of the Antoinette Soto:
    https://www.antoinettesoto.com/gallery/
    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=antoinette+soto&id=A50A12DCFB42AC75D2BC16124F7FDDA387B097AD&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=A50A12DCFB42AC75D2BC16124F7FDDA387B097AD&selectedIndex=0
    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Antoinette+Soto+Wrestler&Form=IQFRDR#view=detail&id=27B20314522826D46229F5AA10412DC618EF37DE&selectedIndex=11
    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Antoinette+Soto+Wrestler&Form=IQFRDR#view=detail&id=A50A12DCFB42AC75D2BC5EB2B4EB2AD83B4765FE&selectedIndex=0

    As for additional production ideas:
    1) Have the heroines spit out water during belly punches & bearhugs.
    2) Simulate the heroines wetting their panties (from a forced climax or pissing themselves out of fear) using a water hose at an angle inserted into their costume.
    3) Use oil & makeup to make the heroines sweat more to further showcase their exhaustion.

    Looking forward to all the new films of 2015.

    0
  103. HorseWithNoName says:

    @ Logan: I was indeed thinking of Heroine Kombat as a positive example i.e. giving heroine movies the flavor of an arcade game of the late 1980s. I find these kinds of genre-mixes very exciting. Will this become stale eventually? Yes, as everything eventually does, but I am sure you will come up with something else to replace it once it has run its course.

    Also, even though I did like the soap opera that was Heroine Legends, a heroine mourning the killing of her male companion by another heroine, man, that was great, I credit you amongst others for getting rid of too complicated storylines. And you echo my words as a fan to the letter: change is a step by step thing unless something drastic is needed. But I really do appreciate that you are trying to incorporate new elements from outside the peril genre.

    0
  104. Logan says:

    Just because these are fun threads to post and lightly debate on, here are my two cents, as usual…

    There are different things to consider here though and some echo what Sidekick has said, some from fans in earlier comments here and in other threads.

    1) Fight choreography. There will always be monotony in fight scenes. You only have about 10 different unique attacks to do when coming up with it. You can take those and make them more advanced if you have martial artists who are capable, but as a fight choreographer with over 2 decades experience, you learn to work with what you have. With most of us producers, you’re given a very blank template to work with with very limited experience and many times, girls who have never thrown a punch in their life. This is where much time is spent simply teaching a girl/model/actress how to throw a punch without having a “bent wrist”. On the other hand, you have some girls who think fight choreography and real fighting are the same thing– so you have to slow them down and teach them that “it’s not real” and how to fight “for camera”. We all like new and adventurous action, but you have to consider the limitations that arise when putting together a fight scene.

    2) Fight moves. This is kinda in part with the 1st topic, but has to be isolated for this particular discussion. Sidekick mentioned this and hit the nail on the head with it– countless posts, replies, comments, emails, etc about very specific moves that viewers want to see… chloro, bear hug, backbreaker, low blow, over the shoulder carry, etc etc. We hardly ever get “hey, can we see a 360 spin kick?” We do try to keep it mixed up, but we also employ MANY fight choreographers– some producers don’t have that resource so they must work with what the actress can do and use camera technique to sweeten it up. And we’ve done cartwheels. 😉

    3) Money. Let’s be real. There is not ONE single producer who makes these movies who would continue to make them after the first few if there wasn’t a profit. Any producer who says otherwise is lying. Whether it’s inclusive of a fetish you share or not– no one would burn money repeatedly to make a movie for everyone else to see if they weren’t getting something back in return. Maybe once, maybe twice. But not more than that. There is a small business ecosystem in this niche and each producer has found their little mini-business in it which is great for the viewers here because it keeps the content coming.

    4) Budget. On the opposite end of money-in. These videos only sell so many copies. That creates a budget for each film. Custom orders are basically (to us) just an alleviation of pressure on the budgeting end of a video. Many requests we get are for very elaborate things that are simply out of the budget. Torture devices (even building them), suspension rigs, high-end visual effects, costume types, locations, etc. We work with what we have to work with. Imagination is huge for this niche– a garage opener can be a detonator, saran wrap can be a cocoon, etc To come up with new things, that means money needs to be spent. The girls are expensive– and many of them justify the pay with the amount of work they have to do (on the adult side). Fight choreo is already tough for most of them so anything above and beyond that means “no” or “pay me more”– regardless of the rate they have requested at first.

    5) Characters: I love unique characters. When I started, I refused to have any of the classic characters. I began my series’ in January 2012. I didn’t introduce a Supergirl character (Vega) until January-ish 2013. Lady Wonder came months after that. Super vs Evil came in 4th Quarter of 2013. BUT I was wrong to have waited so long from a business perspective. Those characters simply sell the most. People’s fetishes began with them and most cannot get enough. The market is flooded and saturated with those 2 characters but when sales are highest with them, you kind of have no choice but to make them. Even NGC just started their Supergirl series and they are known for original characters. Gotta go with the market.

    6) Vocality. When you see one, two, maybe 3 posts (sometimes more) about a specific thing, it’s hardly ever the majority speaking. Most viewers don’t vocalize on any forums what they want. They come to the site and buy– I never hear from them at all unless it’s about a custom order. The biggest seller is foot fetish– I hardly ever see posts about foot fetish videos on any of the forums I frequent. But sales and statistics show that ever foot fetish video we have, will sell more than any other. So what are we doing now? Putting together a Supergirl foot fetish video. We’ll see if it sells well and prove this little theory. If we listen to every comment on these forums, we’d lose our minds. Everyone likes something different. You’re talking about sex and arousal here– it’s bound to change from person to person. We cannot please everyone– only the majority. And those who order and pay for their custom scenarios.

    8) Vision. You cannot make films solely for yourself. Whether you have the fetish or not. When I started, Heroine Legends was the way I wanted it to be. But the story was too complicated for most viewers. There were too many characters. There wasn’t enough fight and peril. The list goes on and on. But I was happy with it. Didn’t matter. It wasn’t until I married my particular tastes and creative influence with what was marketable in this niche that I began to see success in the project. It’s semi-formulaic but allows room to be inventive. Every series we have is the same and different. It can’t be completely different or we wouldn’t be targeting the same audiences. But they have their own nuances and themes which show that there is a very broad spectrum of viewership that can be reached by offering different types of products– as long as you keep certain aspects of the genre intact.

    Is it repetitive? Absolutely. The fans ask for the same thing over and over. What can we do about it? Well, we are always open to suggestion, but we have done everything in our power to mix it up and make it as new, fresh, and creative as possible. Even “The Protectors” was a series that chose an element e.g. low blow or chloro, and find as many ways to introduce that element into the scene with each time being different than the last. Heroine Kombat gave viewers fight peril all in one place with guaranteed KO’s and now fatalities for those who enjoy brutality and death scenes. Super vs Evil gives viewers all-female sexy videos based on the classic 3 heroines. Shadowgirl gives that “only one heroine” universe with an ongoing storyline. Canary gives you 2 that is more street-level. We will always push to create new things but we are bound by the same repetitive requests which influence viewer purchases.

    0
  105. HorseWithNoName says:

    First of all many thanks to Sidekick for putting this thread up.

    Since I am one of those who have been very vocal about getting some fresh ideas into this genre, I naturally want to throw my 2 cents in 🙂

    To break it down: I don’t care about a certain aspect of a movie (even if there is sexual content or not) IF the movie delivers. So it does not matter (to me) if the fight scenes are new or stuff we have mostly seen before, again, IF the movie as a whole holds up and bears multiple viewings.

    I however am very much in favor of trying new stuff in peril movies and it does boggle my mind sometimes at how limited this particular genre feels, and in a saturated market like this one has become, at the end of day it will hurt the pocket books of most producers. Because ultimately people won’t by “the same” movie over and over again. Yes, a new actress gets introduced and everybody is excited. And then we get to see her in two or three (or more) movies, but in the same scenarios as all the other actresses before.

    So, yes, to me, this genre has become repetitive. But should producers listen to fans or even actively enlist fan input? No, absolutely not. There is this great quote: a football coach who listens TO the fans is destined to sit WITH the fans come next season. A producer should do his / her thing with the artistic vision he / she has. It is their money and they bear the risks.

    Does it “hurt” for any producer to pay close attention to what people request? No, but at the end of the day I want to see a producer’s product which is either driven by his / her artistic choices or sales aspects, or both.

    I even feel that right now the influence of fans (like myself) who post their opinions (like I do) is a little bit too much. Why? Because when producers solely put stuff into a movie because it is requested by fans or might make sense sales-wise (i.e. stuff like that has sold before) that is the point when movies become stale. It seems that most fans want to see the elements they already know over and over. This is not only true for peril fans. Read forums about comic books and you will see how much resistance there is whenever a comic book publisher tries a new approach with a character. Remember the discussion we had here when the new Batgirl comic was introduced. Go back and read what a lot of fans thought about this change! There is a reason why Marvel’s “new” great idea is to revisit old events, starting with a new version of “Secret Wars”. So, lots of fans now really need to buy all of these new books because they rehash an old storyline from the 1980s and some stuff from the 90s thrown into the mix.

    The problem with Marvel is the same as with this genre: if it ain’t broken, why fix it. They make sales and with harkening back to old stuff, they please all the fanboys in their mid-forties who love to see every old storyline repeated. DC interestingly, who have fallen by the wayside, are in a different position, and now they have a “creator-driven” new line of books i.e. trying to copy the very successful business model Image Comics has right now, after DC’s mandated “house style for every book” approach has failed.

    I find it so ironically that everybody is so excited about the news of Spider-Man going to appear in Marvel Studios productions as well. Finally we get to see Spider-Man in the Avengers as we should. Really? Think back around ten years ago when Marvel needed to do something fresh because their B-line (the Ultimates) was outselling their A-line of books, and Brian Michael Bendis was brought in to re-imagine The Avengers and then to re-shuffle their whole comic book universe. Go back and read those old posts in the forums back then. Yes, there was an internet back then. The hate about his version of The Avengers. Spider-Man in the Avengers? How dare he! Everybody hated the idea. Before the first issue was published.

    So, what has this to do with peril movies you ask? To me the rub of it is this: most fans want what they already know and the smart producers will give them just that, because that is what sells at the moment. Put Supergirl in it and put her in always the same costume. It will sell. Include certain fight elements and it will sell. In a business world, this makes sense.

    However, there is two ways to go about this: give fans what they want, but slowly build towards something fresh i.e. introduce new elements step by step. Or simple wait until the whole market crashes or your competition is “forced” to try new stuff. McDonald’s anyone? There is a reason their competition is on the rise.

    I would say the producer who is not only smart but who has an eye out for markets in general, will pay close attention to what for example Marvel Studios does: they have begun to put a spin on their comic book movies in order to elevate them from the glut of comic book movies. Iron Man 3 used elements of buddy cop movies of the 1980s, Cap 2 used “Three Day of the Condor” as its blueprint. So be smarter and look around. There are so many elements that can be incoporated into a peril movie to make it fresh and exciting. Look at the source of what made people excited in the first place. Comic books from the 1960s and 1970s which are much more erotic than most modern stuff, for example, instead of copying the film you have just made or making movies that “fit the bill” of a genre peril movie. Look at the stuff that will inspire you. I have just re-discovered Corman’s “The Masque of the Red Death”. In a way the best peril movie I have seen in a long time. And if you want to do Batgirl in the purple outfit because that is what sells, go and watch the old show and try to figure out why that works even today. I know, because I have an old episode just playing on my Mac. Understand why this is erotic before you put yet another actress in the purple suit and let her go through the motions of what a peril movie is right now, instead of making a movie that can be. The benefits? Well, when TBFE made the first Redwing, which was for them very outside the box, they got everybody’s attention. So, my only advice to every producers is: look around you more, look outside of this genre. I have yet to see a more erotic heroine costume than what The Wasp wore in Avengers no. 68 from 1969. And to fans: be more open about new stuff. Remember, we all are happy that Spider-Man is in the Avengers, right?

    As always purely my opinion and your mileage may vary considerably! Peace out 🙂

    0
  106. Burclee says:

    The criticism might be more relevant if the goal of the genre was art.

    The customer’s goal is getting the fetish elements which are desired. I’m guessing the producer’s goal is to earn money.

    All else would be of secondary concern.

    0
  107. wid says:

    The market as well as the desires of those putting money into creating the project of course should decide what gets made. I myself am here for some degree of sameness. I enjoy a Supergirl character wearing the uniform used in the film and 80s and 90s comics. I also enjoy well-done fight scenes. As long as those elements are met, then I do enjoy some variety with villainesses and villains, surrounding story, and the continual improvements in overall quality.

    0
  108. LordSnot says:

    Good points Sidekick. Why even complain there is too much WW, supergirl? Those obviously get sales and I think they look great and let there be more! There are lots of producers! If WW isn’t your thing, guess what? 10 other producers got 10 other products! If the heroine looks good in the outfit the producer has already passed the first obstacle for me. Peril being the second. Gots to have that peril.
    The fighting being repetitive i fully get your point. Just put on a nice decent fight and I am fine with that. Not a deal breaker if the girl doesn’t perform some new martial arts flip or can’t cartwheel off a bad guys chest. Wait, cartwheeling heroines would be awesome! Scratch that! Give us cartwheeling heroines in action! And then the peril.

    0
  109. Bert says:

    @HBoss – I hold the exact opposite opinion. Marketing driven business stifles innovation. If you want a great HIP video, you are much more likely to get it from someone who has a passion for the genre and a desire to add something to it – to do it differently, or better, or more artfully. There are dozens of outfits on clips4sale making market driven micro-fetish vids, and they are almost all garbage.

    There’s nothing wrong with producers taking customers’ requests into consideration when making a vid, but the good ones incorporate those requests seamlessly into their own vision for each project.

    There are many producers now, and customers who buy based solely on number of low blows or bare leg/pantyhose are easy to please, but I have to pick carefully when I buy, and my money usually goes to producers who strive for their own vision rather than rattling off a checklist of requests.

    0
  110. HBoss says:

    What does it all matter?
    If i like a video and want to have it – i buy it.
    The market is wide open – and if the “best of the best” producers do not have enough customers, it only means one thing – they should think about their customers needs.
    If someone wants to earn money it doesn’t matter what he thinks, believes or likes, or wants do to for himself.
    To combine both things is a great luck, but there is wisdom:
    A dealer never should use the drugs he wants to sell.
    A producer who tells his customers what they should have to like or not, isn’t a producer. He’s just someone who wants people to take the drugs he uses himself.
    That’s all about business.

    0